Originally Posted by BritinAfrica

One of my uncles who served in North Africa stated that he had a lot of respect for Italian Artillery. As I wasnt there I cannot confirm or deny, but yes I agree the Italians did surrender in their thousands.

Cisco makes a number of fair and reasoned points regarding the abilities of Monty. In my opinion, Monty was a very good Commander, as was Rommel.

Weird neither my father nor uncles had any respect for the Italian soldier of the period where as they all came home with a great deal of respect for the German soldier, they always said that when dealing with POWs if a German needed anything they ask for it other than that you would pretty much hear nothing from them where as the Italians begged for everything and anything.

I don't have a problem with the idea that Montgomery was a good leader as he was a good leader but I do think he was over rated.

you could cut back calling each other a liar? History is not always as clear and simle as it seems. Even with the sources we use. some may be outdated, some may be corruted and than there is still the fact that EVERY historican just interpretes his sources.
So, if any of you got anything that he think validates his oint, lease post it, coz it might be interesting and even change my point of you, but harrasing each other wont do anything good.

Originally Posted by cisco

you could cut back calling each other a liar?

Apart from saying there was only one liar in the thread please show me where I called anyone a liar.

Originally Posted by cisco

History is not always as clear and simle as it seems. Even with the sources we use. some may be outdated, some may be corruted and than there is still the fact that EVERY historican just interpretes his sources.

As the figures I posted were taken from authorative sources (e.g. BA-MA, N69/18) and are simple tables of numbers I fail to see how they are open to 'interpretation'

Originally Posted by cisco

So, if any of you got anything that he think validates his oint, lease post it, coz it might be interesting and even change my point of you, but harrasing each other wont do anything good.

I did and I gave references for every figure. They are not 'my' figures but rather the figures the German General Staff themselves used to make their strategic decisions.
One poster took exception to them and called me a liar and claims he personaly inspected one of the books I referenced and the information I gave was made up. I can not think of a more serious accusation and thus reserve the right to put the record straight.
Thus far no one has seen fit to offer a credible source that challenges the figure of 1,300,000 German in The West in 1943/44

Originally Posted by MontyB

Weird neither my father nor uncles had any respect for the Italian soldier of the period where as they all came home with a great deal of respect for the German soldier, they always said that when dealing with POWs if a German needed anything they ask for it other than that you would pretty much hear nothing from them where as the Italians begged for everything and anything.

I don't have a problem with the idea that Montgomery was a good leader as he was a good leader but I do think he was over rated.

As I said, my uncle had a lot of respect for Italian Artillery, he never said he had any respect for the rest of the Italian troops. As you said, most 8th Army blokes had a lot of respect for the Afrika Korps and for Rommel.

While doing a search I came across this:-

Field Marshal Erwin Rommel, who commanded the Axis forces for most of the campaign, wrote a book about his experiences there called Krieg Ohne Hass (War Without Hate). It was common practice in the North Africa campaign for machine gunners of both sides to hold their fire when enemy soldiers bailed out of shot-up tanks. Stretcher bearers were routinely permitted to dash into the open to retrieve the wounded. (Of course there were notorious exceptions; the Italians displayed the nasty habit of killing any Arabs suspected of collaborating with the British by hanging them by a hook set under their jaw.) But by and large, the troops of Archibald Wavell, Claude Auchinleck, Neil Ritchie, Bernard Montgomery, Harold Alexander, and those of Rommel and his generals behaved with remarkable restraint.

Rommel himself was one of the foremost practitioners of this knightly self-command. One famous incident reported in the British press tells of Afrika Korps troops overrunning a British field hospital in which both Axis and Allied soldiers were being cared for by the British staff, who had refused to withdraw in the face of the enemy approach but had insisted on remaining with their patients. When Rommel learned of this, he went personally to the hospital, shook the hand of every man and woman on the staff and with great emotion thanked them for their care of his men. He asked them to stay on until he could bring up his own doctors and nurses, to which the British readily agreed. Rommel deliberately did not take them prisoner (which might have set them at hazard once they were out of his direct care) but instead saw to it that they were repatriated through neutral Switzerland.

Rommel insisted that Allied prisoners receive the same rations and care that he did. Desmond Young (later a brigadier, who wrote the excellent Rommel The Desert Fox) tells the story of his own capture by the Germans. The battery that Young commanded remained unsubdued, though surrounded. An Afrika Korps officer held Young at gunpoint, demanding that Young order his men to hoist the white flag. Young told him to stuff it. The situation was getting a bit sticky, as the Brits might say, when suddenly a staff car chanced to appear, braking in a cloud of dust. Out stepped Rommel. As soon as the situation was explained to the Desert Fox, he upbraided his own officer for conduct in violation of the code of soldierly honor. The officer would have to find, Rommel declared, another way of solving the problem.

More at the link.
Source(s):

http://www.armchairgeneral.com/pov-war-w…

Originally Posted by cisco

you could cut back calling each other a liar? History is not always as clear and simle as it seems. Even with the sources we use. some may be outdated, some may be corruted and than there is still the fact that EVERY historican just interpretes his sources.
So, if any of you got anything that he think validates his oint, lease post it, coz it might be interesting and even change my point of you, but harrasing each other wont do anything good.

Cisco makes a good point, although I havent seen mkenny call anyone a liar.

The Italians suffered from two things while they where in North Africa, poor leadership and even worse equipment. Now when the Germans equipped them with 88 mm guns and some other of their equipment then they put up quite stout defense.