Was General Montgomery really overrated in WW2? - Page 43




 
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August 8th, 2009  
Panzercracker
 
In other words you have no readily available proof, i will check Muller out but untill then i have your less than reliable word on it.

Also there's another simple way to debunk your ridiculous claims but we'll do that tomorrow since its middle of the night in Germany and no one will respond to my e-mail
August 8th, 2009  
mkenny
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Panzercracker
In other words you have no readily available proof,
It is in the figures I gave. I can not alter them and if 'Muller' (I tried not to laugh-honest!) is shown to be wrong then you are on the verge of making a really big name for yourself.
August 9th, 2009  
Panzercracker
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mkenny
It is in the figures I gave. I can not alter them and if 'Muller' (I tried not to laugh-honest!) is shown to be wrong then you are on the verge of making a really big name for yourself.
Then i accept your concession try not to lie in the future (btw i called my friend he cannot find your quotes on the page or neighboring ones, i'll have a look at the book myself but it seems like you were indeed lying).
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August 9th, 2009  
mkenny
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Panzercracker
I called my friend he cannot find your quotes on the page or neighboring ones,
Just ask your 'friend' to give you the figures for The West from Heer 3.

While he is at it ask if he can check
Materialien zum Vortrag des Chefs des Wehrmachtführungsstabes vom 7.11.1943 "Die strategische Lage am Anfang des fünften Kriegsjahres

for the 1943 manpower figures and


If you had access to Müller-Hillebrand then I wonder why you tried to palm off an Osprey title as a credible source.

I can only refer back to your earlier boast (in another thread) that you would

"asume you're using some deeply amusing source like National Geographic or some myth loving author, why wont you come forward with it so we can rip your silly claims apart by confronting sources"

I came forward with the source and instead of 'ripping' or 'confronting' it you just slunk away and stopped posting!

http://www.military-quotes.com/forum...tml#post528106


It seems you are full of wind.

You also confuse the "Wehrmacht" with "Ostheer". The Wehrmacht was close to 10,000,000 1943. The Ostheer peaked at around 3.3 million in mid 1943, falling to 2.5 million in 1944.
August 9th, 2009  
MontyB
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mkenny
Just ask your 'friend' to give you the figures for The West from Heer 3.
I am going to take this off topic for a sec but by Heer 3 do you mean...
Das Heer 1933-1945: Entwicklung des organisatorischen Aufbaues, 3rd Edition?

I have a ton of books on this topic that are all in German (inherited from the wifes side of the family) and as I only understand about one in four German words I have been looking to buy the better books in English (Trust me it would be cheaper and easier than me actually learning German).
August 9th, 2009  
BritinAfrica
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Panzercracker
I consider the rest of your post just continous propaganda but if you see something i should adress further please do so.
Of course you would consider my post propaganda as it doesnt suit your blathering and biased posts. You have no supporting evidence to back up your so called opinion, what can only be regarded as total bollocks.

Yes Market Garden was a failure, however IF it had worked it would have shortened the war considerably.

As for your stupid sweeping statement that Monty only won in North Africa was by swamping the Afrika Korps by building up his numbers. Do you consider that to be a bad command descision and in your expert opinion Monty shouldnt have built up material and troops? Using your reasoning the whole invasion of Europe and the Far East was not won due to the tactical and strategic descisions by the various Allied senior officers, but purely due to overwhelming material and troops.

Rommel was in North Africa before, during and after the battle of El Alamein. On 9 March he handed over command of Armeegruppe Afrika to General Hans-Jürgen von Arnim and left Africa, because of health reasons, never to return. On 13 May 1943, General Messe surrendered the remnants of Armeegruppe Afrika to the Allies.

I have major respect for Rommel and the German soldier, the fact is, he and the Afrika Korps were chased out of North Africa by Monty. Or in your most expert opinon, thats propaganda as well?

Having reached Tunisia Rommel launched an attack against the U.S. II Corps which was threatening to cut his lines of supply north to Tunis. Rommel inflicted a sharp defeat on the American forces at the Kasserine Pass in February.

Rommel immediately turned back against the British forces, occupying the Mareth Line (old French defences on the Libyan border). But Rommel could only delay the inevitable. At the end of January 1943, the Italian General Giovanni Messe had been appointed the new commander of Rommel's Panzer Army Africa while Rommel had been at Kasserine, which was renamed the Italo-German Panzer Army (in recognition of the fact that it consisted of one German and three Italian corps). Though Messe replaced Rommel, he diplomatically deferred to him, and the two coexisted in what was theoretically the same command. On 23 February Armeegruppe Afrika was created with Rommel in command. It included the Italo-German Panzer Army under Messe (renamed 1st Italian Army) and the German 5th Panzer Army in the north of Tunisia under General Hans-Jürgen von Arnim.

The last Rommel offensive in North Africa was on 6 March 1943, when he attacked Eighth Army at the Battle of Medenine. The attack was made with 10th, 15th, and 21st Panzer Divisions. Warned by ULTRA intercepts, Montgomery deployed large numbers of anti-tank guns in the path of the offensive. After losing 52 tanks, Rommel called off the assault. On 9 March he handed over command of Armeegruppe Afrika to General Hans-Jürgen von Arnim and left Africa, because of health reasons, never to return. On 13 May 1943, General Messe surrendered the remnants of Armeegruppe Afrika to the Allies.

Some historians contrast Rommel's withdrawal to Tunisia against Hitler's wishes with Friedrich Paulus's obedience of orders to have the German Sixth Army stand its ground at the Battle of Stalingrad which resulted in its annihilation. Field Marshal Albert Kesselring, appointed overall Axis commander in North Africa, saw things differently. He believed the withdrawals, some of which were carried out against his orders, unnecessary and ruinous since they brought forward British airfields ever closer to the port of Tunis. As far as he was concerned, Rommel was an insubordinate defeatist and string-puller. The increasingly acrimonious relations between the two did nothing to enhance performance
August 9th, 2009  
mkenny
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
I am going to take this off topic for a sec but by Heer 3 do you mean...
Das Heer 1933-1945: Entwicklung des organisatorischen Aufbaues, 3rd Edition?
Mueller-Hillebrand, Burkhart. Das Heer 1933-1945. Darmstadt: E. S. Mittler &
Sohn, 1954-1969. 3 vols

Specificaly volume III

Das Heer 1933-1945: Entwicklung des organisatorischen Aufbaues. Band III: Der Zweifrontenkrieg. Das Heer vom Beginn des Feldzuges gegen die Sowjetunion bis zum Ende

The Army 1933-1945: Development of the organizational structure. Volume III: The two-front war. The army from the beginning of the campaign against the Soviet Union until the end.


The problem we have here is that Pz. cracked has got a total figure for the ENTIRE German Armed Forces (Army, Navy and Air Force) say 10,000,000.
Then he finds a total for Ground Units in France, say 800,000.
He then calculates the % of 10 million that 800,000 gives- 8%- and then assumes the remaining 9,200,000-92%-all fought as ground troops in The East. The true like for like comparison shows that around 60% of the German Field Army was fighting in Russia/The East.

Note
all figs for illustrative purposes only DO NOT COMPLAIN IF THEY ARE FOUND WANTING
August 10th, 2009  
03USMC
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Panzercracker





Besides that the failure for Market Garden can and should be shared. After all Ike had to approve it and he apparently thought enough of it to do so, so should cop some of the blame as the approving authority yet he doesn't.
Thats because Eisenhower was not the planner.

Come on Ike approved the plan he ,viewed the plan, he put other offensive operations on hold to carry out the plan. If you think he doesn't share in the blame, you seriously need to get real.




EMBEDDED.
August 11th, 2009  
rustybolt25
 
Cracker, calling people "liars" and being generally abusive is poor arguing. I don't think you would have the guts to behave like this face to face with someone. I guess blogs are generally a poor form of comunication between human beings, particularly cowards.
August 12th, 2009  
mkenny
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Panzercracker
I called my friend he cannot find your quotes on the page or neighboring ones, i'll have a look at the book myself but it seems like you were indeed lying.
Still waiting for confirmation from your 'friend' that the information is not in Volume III......................
Best just do your usual trick and just stop posting in the thread until we all forget about your mistakes.