Was General Montgomery really overrated in WW2? - Page 38




 
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September 15th, 2008  
errol
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Papashah41
errol, I believe Model's expertise was his ability in rebuilding mauled and broken units and shoring up fronts which where near cracking. If I'm not mistaken he brought stability to the Eastern Front in May and June of 1944. But it appears he was of the school of no retreat. His un-elastic approach to defensive warfare would inevitably lead to more waste, ala Stalingrad. It appears to be an unrealistic position he shared with his Fuhrer. But I have only read of model's escapades quite a while ago. Would you suggest further reading.
The Devil's Virtuosos by David Downing is an excellent book about the German generals of ww2. It has an interesting section on Model. It may be hard to get a copy but you can try on the net. I've have a copy sitting in a box in my spare room.

http://www.alibris.com/search/books/...;s%20Virtuosos

The Battle for Moscow by Albert Seaton is a terrific book which I mentioned on the other thread.

http://www.amazon.com/Battle-Moscow-.../dp/096276132X
September 16th, 2008  
Papashah41
 
perseus, As a Canadian I will direct my attention to their losses in Europe from 42 to fall 44. The losses at Hong Kong will be mentioned at another time. At Dieppe the casualty rate was over 900 killed, 2000 taken prisoiner, many of whom were badly wounded. They lost 70% of their force of almost 5000 men. In the Moro, Ortona battles the cost was 2339 all ranks killed and wounded. Sickness and battle fatigue cost a further 1617 men. I cannot list the American losses at the western end or the British, Indian and New Zealanders fighting beside the Canadians. But they were fighting their own battles and I'm sure the casualty rate was quite high. In the 5 weeks it took to clear the Scheldt estuary the 1st Canadian army lost 12,873 men. Of these losses half were Canadian citizens. Note, I have left several battles unmentioned. By any stretch of the imagination, these are not small numbers when you consider Canada's population and the amount of personel they supplied in Italy and North-West Europe.

LeEnfield, Reading some comments by members, I came across one you submitted on March 9, 2006. When you refer to children's divisions I think you are referring to the 12TH SS Panzer Division Hitlerjugend. There were no children in this division. The bulk of the private soldiers and a few NCO's were 18 and 19 years of age. There were a few 17 year olds but these men were nearly 18, and there weren't very many of them. Most NCO's were in their twenties and thirties and a few in their early forties. Their officers were all in their late twenties and mid to late thirties. All NCO's and officers had extensive experience on the Ostfront. This was one of the best led, couragous and even fanatical Kampfgruppes at that time. They were a very professional killing machine. They murdered prisoners early in the campaign causing a terrible reaction with the allied troopers. Little or no quarter was ever given by either side in this campaign.
January 4th, 2009  
errol
 
 
Interesting comments.

How's it going Doody???? (Aussie John).
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January 4th, 2009  
LeEnfield
 
 
Papashah 41 there was a Junior SS Battalion with many only in the their early teens in the Battle around Caen and this SS Battalion fought around the airfield that the Canadians were trying to take, when they were eventually over run there was just six survivors from this battalion. Also it should be remembered that out of the nine German Division in action opposing the allied landings six of these Germen Divisions were dug in and in depth opposite the British & Commonwealth lines. When the Americans made their break out they were opposed by three German Division, and no I am not knocking what the Americans did as we were all in the same fight. Still this is one of the reasons that it took the British & Commonwealth Forces so much longer to close the Falsie pocket as we had to fight far heavier defences.
January 5th, 2009  
papasha40
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeEnfield
Papashah 41 there was a Junior SS Battalion with many only in the their early teens in the Battle around Caen and this SS Battalion fought around the airfield that the Canadians were trying to take, when they were eventually over run there was just six survivors from this battalion. Also it should be remembered that out of the nine German Division in action opposing the allied landings six of these Germen Divisions were dug in and in depth opposite the British & Commonwealth lines. When the Americans made their break out they were opposed by three German Division, and no I am not knocking what the Americans did as we were all in the same fight. Still this is one of the reasons that it took the British & Commonwealth Forces so much longer to close the Falsie pocket as we had to fight far heavier defences.
I agree with you. The Caen area was the tough nut to crack at and after D-Day. Most of the armour was put piecemeal into the Caen battles. And yes Carpiquet was a tough objective. It was being held by members of the 12th SS panzer division Hitlerjugend.

I had read that these Hitler Youth were mostly 18 and 19 years of age with some as young as 17. If you have any accounts of the division using younger soldiers I would love to see them. Its quite possible the Nazi's used younger soldiers in Normandy.

As you can see I have a slight name change now.
January 5th, 2009  
LeEnfield
 
 
Now if call a 700 tank advance peicemeal then what do you call a mass attack. Rommel and Montgomery were old foes since 1941. Now they faced off once again in Normandy. Operation Goodwood was the largest tank assault in the Normandy campaign, as over 700 tanks in three British armoured divisions attempted to bust out of the bocage country. After all, the objectives were only seven miles distant. Rommel, his forces armed with over 200 tanks including Tiger I and Tiger IIs, plus more than 75 dreaded 88mm guns, ripped apart Montgomery's plans. Soon the wheatfields ran red with blood and burned with hundreds of British tanks.


See the link for a report on the fighting

http://mars.wnec.edu/~grempel/tours/...dy/battle.html

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January 5th, 2009  
papasha40
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeEnfield
Now if call a 700 tank advance peicemeal then what do you call a mass attack. Rommel and Montgomery were old foes since 1941. Now they faced off once again in Normandy. Operation Goodwood was the largest tank assault in the Normandy campaign, as over 700 tanks in three British armoured divisions attempted to bust out of the bocage country. After all, the objectives were only seven miles distant. Rommel, his forces armed with over 200 tanks including Tiger I and Tiger IIs, plus more than 75 dreaded 88mm guns, ripped apart Montgomery's plans. Soon the wheatfields ran red with blood and burned with hundreds of British tanks.


See the link for a report on the fighting





http://mars.wnec.edu/~grempel/tours/...dy/battle.html

.
Sorry if my post wasn't clear. I was describing the German armour which was put into battle piecemeal, because of confusion, bad intel and supply problems. Not to mention the complete superiority of the Allied airforce and the disappearing act of the Luftwaffe. But even with these problems the German soldier usually outsoldiered his Allied opponent.

I think there were no Tiger 2's in Normandy. Not at that time anyway. All the same it must have been quite terrifying at times for Sherman tank crews to operate those machines. German armour could defeat them at 1500 to 2000 meters and the Sherman had to get within 400 to 500 meters to defeat a Panther and a side or rear shot was usually needed. Of course the Firefly was a different ball of wax. The crews of the Shermans called their tank the Ronson. The Germans called them Tommycookers.
January 7th, 2009  
errol
 
 
Max Hastings book "Overlord" backs up what you are saying Papa.
January 7th, 2009  
papasha40
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by errol
Max Hastings book "Overlord" backs up what you are saying Papa.
I got my material from Michael Reynold's excellent book, Steel Inferno, a number of books by Tim Ripley and numerous others including Kurt Meyer's Grenadiers. It may be just me but I think Meyer was prone to exaggeration. I have yet to read Hasting's Overlord. I can't seem to find a copy. I must order one. A friend gave me a copy of Hasting's Armageddon. But I dont wish to read it before Overlord. I'm currently reading, Fields of Fire by Terry Copp. Its a short history of the Canadians in Normandy. I'm only to chapter 4. But seems to be an excellent work so far.
January 15th, 2009  
reddale
 

Topic: Wittman - had a Canadian killer


Enfield,

An "Unsolved History" show on the History Channel just before Christmas 2008 featured Wittman's final day. Wittman led a group of 4 Tiger I's and none survived.


However on the other side of the farmers field Wittman's Tiger was within 150 m for 3 to 4 Sherman tanks (regular short barrel Shermans) of the Canadian 27th Armoured Regiment (Sherbrooke Fusiliers Armoured Regiment) which were hidden behind a stone wall.

The show interviewed Gordon's gunner and also Col Walter Radley of the Fusiliers. French farmers who owned the field where Wittman & crew were killed had pieces of his tank and accompanied the surveying crew which confirmed distance and lines of site.

Reddale