Gen. Pace: Wait for probe of Iraq deaths
Kirruth
Active member
Kirruth
Active member
Actually, in these circumstances, I would expect the USMC to do the right thing: I'm very reluctant to rush to judgement on this issue, as it feels like there's a whole bunch of facts we're not getting. To say that Marines gunned down innocent women and children is an extraordinary statement: and I won't believe it until somebody shows me solid evidence to back it up.
Put another way, there's an enemy in Iraq killing a thousand innocent people a month, including women, including children and seeking to propagandise each one. We know this. While the Haditha situation looks bad, and while there may have been culpable actions, my view is we should trust the process and unless and until somebody proves otherwise, assume the accused are innocent.
Put another way, there's an enemy in Iraq killing a thousand innocent people a month, including women, including children and seeking to propagandise each one. We know this. While the Haditha situation looks bad, and while there may have been culpable actions, my view is we should trust the process and unless and until somebody proves otherwise, assume the accused are innocent.
sunb!
Forum Barbecuer
Today on Washington Post; http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/31/AR2006053101058.html
bulldogg
Milforum's Bouncer
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13090111/
They are being charged. This does NOT mean they are guilty.
My opinion? This should NOT be in the press. It should be handled and the information should be censored. It does not help anyone to air this crap. In my opinion the news media are fanning the flames that are burning my brothers.
They are being charged. This does NOT mean they are guilty.
My opinion? This should NOT be in the press. It should be handled and the information should be censored. It does not help anyone to air this crap. In my opinion the news media are fanning the flames that are burning my brothers.
U.S. Troops to Get Ethics Training
Associated Press | June 02, 2006
BAGHDAD, Iraq - The U.S. military ordered coalition troops in Iraq to undergo special training in ethics and "the values that separate us from our enemies" in the wake of allegations that Marines killed two dozen unarmed civilians in Haditha.
The order came Thursday as Iraq's government launched its own investigation of the deaths last November in the western town as well as other incidents involving U.S. troops. Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki called the killings "a horrible crime," his strongest public comments on the incident since his government was sworn in May 20.
"This is a phenomenon that has become common among many of the multinational forces," al-Maliki said. "No respect for citizens, smashing civilian cars and killing on a suspicion or a hunch. It's unacceptable."
Al-Maliki's remarks appeared to lend credibility to complaints by Iraqis of what they see as U.S. troops' cultural insensitivity and disregard for Iraqi lives. To many Iraqis, the soldiers are occupiers seeking to control the country's oil wealth.
The Americans, on the other hand, are under intense pressure, isolated from Iraqis by cultural and language barriers and battling insurgents who easily blend into the civilian population. Some of the troops are in Iraq on their third combat tour since the U.S. invasion three years ago.
The training, which will include slideshows, will cover all coalition soldiers in Iraq and last 30 days. Of the 150,000-strong multinational contingent in Iraq, 130,000 are Americans.
"As military professionals, it is important that we take time to reflect on the values that separate us from our enemies," Lt. Gen. Peter Chiarelli, the No. 2 U.S. general in Iraq, said in a statement. "The challenge for us is to make sure the actions of a few do not tarnish the good work of the many."
Maj. Gen. William Caldwell, spokesman for the Multinational Force-Iraq, told a Baghdad news briefing that the training was designed to reinforce what troops learned before coming to Iraq. It will focus on "values and looking at the legal, moral and ethical standards that every one of us in uniform here, as guests of the Iraqi government, need to adhere to," he said.
"The coalition does not and will not tolerate any unethical or criminal behavior. All allegations of such activity will be fully investigated," he said.
Chiarelli's announcement followed last week's visit to Iraq by U.S. Marine Commandant, Gen. Michael W. Hagee, who cautioned troops on the danger of becoming "indifferent to the loss of a human life."
The U.S. military is conducting at least two investigations into the killings of civilians, including women and children, in Haditha on Nov. 19.
The killings followed the death that day of a Marine in a bomb explosion that targeted a military convoy. U.S. Congressman John Murtha, a decorated war veteran who has been briefed by military officials, has said the Marines, angered by the loss of a comrade, shot and killed civilians in a taxi near the scene and went into nearby homes and shot others.
U.S. military investigators have evidence that points toward unprovoked murders by the Marines, a senior defense official said last week. The Washington Post reported Thursday that the investigators will conclude some officers gave false testimony to their superiors, who then failed to scrutinize the reports adequately.
It took nearly a month for U.S. President George W. Bush to be told of the Haditha investigation, the White House said Thursday. Earlier this week, Bush aides had said the president was briefed "soon after" the probe began.
The decision to launch an Iraqi inquiry was made at a Cabinet meeting Thursday, according to Adnan al-Kazimi, an adviser to the prime minister.
A committee of security experts as well as officials from the Justice and Human Rights ministries will look into the Haditha incident as well as other cases where misconduct by U.S. troops is suspected, al-Kazimi told The Associated Press.
An Iraqi government statement said the Haditha "tragedy" violated the guidelines of justice and human rights" and demanded no leniency be shown to its perpetrators.
"The Council of Ministers demands that generous financial compensations be paid to the victims' families and an official apology be presented to the Iraqi government after the results of the investigation are announced," the statement said. It emphasized, however, the need for coordination between the Iraqi side and the U.S.-led coalition forces.
Prime Minister al-Maliki's tone was even tougher.
"It appears to be a horrible crime," he told reporters. "A large number of women, men and children have been killed because of an explosion that targeted a vehicle of the multinational forces."
He said the list of human rights breaches by coalition forces in Iraq was long.
Reinforcing "core values" training could help prevent such alleged incidents, experts said.
"I think it's a healthy thing," said Howard Prince, director of the Center for Ethical Leadership at the University of Texas at Austin. "It's time to step back and do refresher training to remind those how the United States wages war."
However, Prince, a retired Army general, cautioned that training needs to be constantly reinforced. "I think it'll have an effect, but the effect won't be as powerful if it's not sustained by continuous efforts on part of leadership at every level," he said.
http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,13319,99460,00.html
Associated Press | June 02, 2006
BAGHDAD, Iraq - The U.S. military ordered coalition troops in Iraq to undergo special training in ethics and "the values that separate us from our enemies" in the wake of allegations that Marines killed two dozen unarmed civilians in Haditha.
The order came Thursday as Iraq's government launched its own investigation of the deaths last November in the western town as well as other incidents involving U.S. troops. Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki called the killings "a horrible crime," his strongest public comments on the incident since his government was sworn in May 20.
"This is a phenomenon that has become common among many of the multinational forces," al-Maliki said. "No respect for citizens, smashing civilian cars and killing on a suspicion or a hunch. It's unacceptable."
Al-Maliki's remarks appeared to lend credibility to complaints by Iraqis of what they see as U.S. troops' cultural insensitivity and disregard for Iraqi lives. To many Iraqis, the soldiers are occupiers seeking to control the country's oil wealth.
The Americans, on the other hand, are under intense pressure, isolated from Iraqis by cultural and language barriers and battling insurgents who easily blend into the civilian population. Some of the troops are in Iraq on their third combat tour since the U.S. invasion three years ago.
The training, which will include slideshows, will cover all coalition soldiers in Iraq and last 30 days. Of the 150,000-strong multinational contingent in Iraq, 130,000 are Americans.
"As military professionals, it is important that we take time to reflect on the values that separate us from our enemies," Lt. Gen. Peter Chiarelli, the No. 2 U.S. general in Iraq, said in a statement. "The challenge for us is to make sure the actions of a few do not tarnish the good work of the many."
Maj. Gen. William Caldwell, spokesman for the Multinational Force-Iraq, told a Baghdad news briefing that the training was designed to reinforce what troops learned before coming to Iraq. It will focus on "values and looking at the legal, moral and ethical standards that every one of us in uniform here, as guests of the Iraqi government, need to adhere to," he said.
"The coalition does not and will not tolerate any unethical or criminal behavior. All allegations of such activity will be fully investigated," he said.
Chiarelli's announcement followed last week's visit to Iraq by U.S. Marine Commandant, Gen. Michael W. Hagee, who cautioned troops on the danger of becoming "indifferent to the loss of a human life."
The U.S. military is conducting at least two investigations into the killings of civilians, including women and children, in Haditha on Nov. 19.
The killings followed the death that day of a Marine in a bomb explosion that targeted a military convoy. U.S. Congressman John Murtha, a decorated war veteran who has been briefed by military officials, has said the Marines, angered by the loss of a comrade, shot and killed civilians in a taxi near the scene and went into nearby homes and shot others.
U.S. military investigators have evidence that points toward unprovoked murders by the Marines, a senior defense official said last week. The Washington Post reported Thursday that the investigators will conclude some officers gave false testimony to their superiors, who then failed to scrutinize the reports adequately.
It took nearly a month for U.S. President George W. Bush to be told of the Haditha investigation, the White House said Thursday. Earlier this week, Bush aides had said the president was briefed "soon after" the probe began.
The decision to launch an Iraqi inquiry was made at a Cabinet meeting Thursday, according to Adnan al-Kazimi, an adviser to the prime minister.
A committee of security experts as well as officials from the Justice and Human Rights ministries will look into the Haditha incident as well as other cases where misconduct by U.S. troops is suspected, al-Kazimi told The Associated Press.
An Iraqi government statement said the Haditha "tragedy" violated the guidelines of justice and human rights" and demanded no leniency be shown to its perpetrators.
"The Council of Ministers demands that generous financial compensations be paid to the victims' families and an official apology be presented to the Iraqi government after the results of the investigation are announced," the statement said. It emphasized, however, the need for coordination between the Iraqi side and the U.S.-led coalition forces.
Prime Minister al-Maliki's tone was even tougher.
"It appears to be a horrible crime," he told reporters. "A large number of women, men and children have been killed because of an explosion that targeted a vehicle of the multinational forces."
He said the list of human rights breaches by coalition forces in Iraq was long.
Reinforcing "core values" training could help prevent such alleged incidents, experts said.
"I think it's a healthy thing," said Howard Prince, director of the Center for Ethical Leadership at the University of Texas at Austin. "It's time to step back and do refresher training to remind those how the United States wages war."
However, Prince, a retired Army general, cautioned that training needs to be constantly reinforced. "I think it'll have an effect, but the effect won't be as powerful if it's not sustained by continuous efforts on part of leadership at every level," he said.
http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,13319,99460,00.html
WarMachine
Active member
So do soldiers get much ethics trainnig to begin with, you know at boot camp or something.
PJ24
Active member
WarMachine said:
Do a search on Army/Air Force/Navy/Marine Corps values (they all pretty much say the same things with different words), you will see that ethics and morality are at the heart of training a soldier and are hammered in from the beginning. If you notice in the article, it talks about "reinforcing" values through death by power point presentations.
The problem isn't lack of ethics or training in it and it isn't us, it is elsewhere and unfortunately, I'd probably lose my job if I shared my opinions on it. :neutral:
bulldogg
Milforum's Bouncer
www.armystudyguide.com is your friend Warmachine. Click on preparing for Basic and have a read.
Mohmar Deathstrike
Banned
Whoever censors information is the enemy of freedom.bulldogg said:
bulldogg
Milforum's Bouncer
Bullspit! Only an ignorant twit would make such a specious claim. OPSEC and PERSEC are all about censoring information and controlling who knows what and it saves lives. But then I digress as you know SFA about any of this. When certain information does NO good but only serves to fuel the enemy it MUST be suppressed to save lives and take the initiative away from suicide bombers and cowards who use women and children as shields as they shirk from a stand up fight like a real man with courage of his convictions, something I think you also have trouble relating to. Freedom and liberty are not harmed in any way, shape or form through the judicious control of information.
In fact, they are served better for it. would you say that WWII worked for or against freedom from tyrrany and oppression? Of course you will answer in the affirmative unless you just want to be a total ass. During WWII all media reports were strictly controlled and it is no coincidence that it was in those days that we saw our troops with the greatest initiative on the battlefield and no one felt oppressed or denied their rights in the least. So pack it in and pull yer head out.
Just because you CAN does NOT mean you SHOULD.
In fact, they are served better for it. would you say that WWII worked for or against freedom from tyrrany and oppression? Of course you will answer in the affirmative unless you just want to be a total ass. During WWII all media reports were strictly controlled and it is no coincidence that it was in those days that we saw our troops with the greatest initiative on the battlefield and no one felt oppressed or denied their rights in the least. So pack it in and pull yer head out.
Just because you CAN does NOT mean you SHOULD.
WarMachine
Active member
It wouldn't matter if it was covered up or not, it leaks because the iraqis would want to find out. The info that Time magazine gained about haditha didn't come from americans, it came from an iraqi journalist in the town who thought the whole thing was suspicious. The reason being was that old women and babies were found among the dead, and witnesses say there was shooting coming mostly from the americans.
The military didn't just now start these investigations, it was back in february when the story was published and military investigations were under way to see if this was worth further looking into, apparently it was. There is a republican congressman who is a former marine that demands that those who are responsible for killing civilians are punished.
The marine corp has a tough job over there in Iraq, and it's understandable if they're under a lot of stress, but there's no excuse for killing civilians if you snap. They are good men and i would imagine that something like this would make the corp feeling very uneasy if its image is smeared, so many of their own ranks would want to see this incident resolved. Innocent until proven guilty i say, but it does look like there are guilty parties here given the evidence.
The military didn't just now start these investigations, it was back in february when the story was published and military investigations were under way to see if this was worth further looking into, apparently it was. There is a republican congressman who is a former marine that demands that those who are responsible for killing civilians are punished.
The marine corp has a tough job over there in Iraq, and it's understandable if they're under a lot of stress, but there's no excuse for killing civilians if you snap. They are good men and i would imagine that something like this would make the corp feeling very uneasy if its image is smeared, so many of their own ranks would want to see this incident resolved. Innocent until proven guilty i say, but it does look like there are guilty parties here given the evidence.
PJ24
Active member
Hey guy, just a heads up, it's "Corps." Common mistake but corp is different from Corps.
As for the investigation, there was an investigation long before any story. Anytime we have an incident it is investigated. We just don't annouce it to all the world unless there's a reason to.
The media isn't looking for truth, they just want a story.
As for the investigation, there was an investigation long before any story. Anytime we have an incident it is investigated. We just don't annouce it to all the world unless there's a reason to.
The media isn't looking for truth, they just want a story.