French Rafael knocked off $ 10 billion race for IAF fighter

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rock45

Active member
French Rafael knocked off $ 10 billion race for IAF fighter


Manu Pubby Posted: Thursday , Apr 16, 2009 at 1803 hrs IST

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New Delhi:
In a shocker, the French Rafael fighter has been knocked off a $ 10 billion contract to provide 126 combat aircraft for the Indian Air Force. The French fighter, which was one of the six contenders for the race, was officially rejected by the Defence Ministry for failing to meet qualitative requirements for the contract.
The news comes as a bit of a shock as the Indian Air Force has been maintaining that all six contenders – the American F 18 and F 16, the Eurofighter Typhoon, Russian MiG 35, Swedish Gripen NG and the French fighter – had met the technical requirements.
However, a senior defence ministry official made is clear on Thursday that Rafael has been rejected at the technical evaluation stage for failing to meet minimum performance requirements that had been detailed in the tender document. The flight trials for the remaining five fighters are now expected to commence within three months, a senior MoD official said.



Link
http://www.indianexpress.com/news/french-rafael-knocked-off-10-billion-race-for-iaf-fighter/447745/

UPDATE 1-France's Dassault out of India fighter deal

http://www.reuters.com/article/rbssIndustryMaterialsUtilitiesNews/idUSBMA00273620090416
 
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Prices

France's prices must too high and I think on the maintenance and support side. A poster in a different forum posted that MICA missiles are three times the cost of ARRAAM's. I have no way of confirming that but that might play a factor.

Another factor is how France cut off Taiwan support for there MICA missiles and now they're high and dry. Taiwan has expensive Mirage 2000-5 fighters but nothing to shoot at the Chinese 90% of their MICA's need replacing, something about service life ended.

France makes more money I guess off the airliner sales with China then fighter support to Taiwan. Notice how the Rafale was never offered to Taiwan, it's no accident. Clear cut political pressure plain and simple.
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Uh oh. After hearing this, I'm guessing Greece is going to reconsider *their* interest in the Rafael as well. I was really hoping they'd get it instead of the Typhoon, which might become something of a problem for the future TuAF F-35s over the Aegean theatre. :(
 
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Don't dismiss the Gripen NG so fast folks.

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Not marketed as well as the 'big boys' but can do a lot of damage out there at a lower cost. :smil:
 
Hi Lunatik
I'm a Gripen fan also don't get me wrong but Indian's in other forums I'm in just don't this fighter has a chance. They want everything to be as good as a MKI Flanker but only cost like a Mig-29. The Gripen does very well against F-15/16/18 in different mock trainings but the Indians just don't seem to give it's due.
 
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My Money is on the Mig-35. The Indians operate mostly Russian Aircraft and a few very old French Mirage F1 and IIIs. The indians just completed a deal for carrier versions of the Mig-29 so it makes sense they want to stick with what thet know.

Cost would be my reason of why the Rafale was elminated, its a expensive plane considering the dirt cheap prices of the F-16 and F-18.
 
Yes, the Gripen is an excellent aircraft for a reasonable price.

Embarrassing moment for the French, certainly. They can't seem to give the Rafale away...
 
The Other Guy said:
Yes, the Gripen is an excellent aircraft for a reasonable price.

Embarrassing moment for the French, certainly. They can't seem to give the Rafale away...
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Strange too, because the Rafale is much more modern than some of the other constestants. Still I think the Indians were right to eliminate it.
 
India

Hi mmarsh
India doesn't operate F1 or Mirage III but do have the Mirage 2000's around 50 frames.
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Maybe you were thinking about Pakistan which still operates the Mirage III in an updated ROSE form (not sure what it means)

I agree with you on the Fulcrums, India will go with this selection money and they already operate the same type. Like you mentioned they ordered 16 Mig-29K and 4 KUB models for there navy and there air force still has around 60+ frames, older Mig-29A models.

Side note the K model Fulcrums were ordered in 2004.
 
rock45 said:
Hi mmarsh
India doesn't operate F1 or Mirage III but do have the Mirage 2000's around 50 frames.
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Maybe you were thinking about Pakistan which still operates the Mirage III in an updated ROSE form (not sure what it means)

I agree with you on the Fulcrums, India will go with this selection money and they already operate the same type. Like you mentioned they ordered 16 Mig-29K and 4 KUB models for there navy and there air force still has around 60+ frames, older Mig-29A models.

Side note the K model Fulcrums were ordered in 2004.
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Whoops you are absolutely right, sorry about that I must have been thinking something else. I remember the Indians originally asked for Mirage-2000-5's but Dessault had just taken them off the assembly line to build Rafales, so they were offered Rafales instead. The problem is the 2000 and the Rafale are fairly different and would require a totally seperate logitical support. Which brings us back to why I dont think the Indians will buy US/UK or Swedish aircraft either. They dont want to supply logistic support for the aircraft of 3 different countries (Russia, France, and US/UKSweden). That just leaves the Mig-35. Within a few years they will decommision the remaining 200ss and will have a pure Russian equipped AF and Navy.
 
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Also what the French pulled off with the Taiwanese wasn't exactly a customer winner either.
In the event that China and India re-develop old tensions, India may find itself in an awkward position if it has French aircraft that depend on French munitions and spare parts while the Chinese pressure the French to stop supplying the Indians.
 
Your right about the Mirage 2000-5 India did ask about them and the Su-30 could be bought for less per aircraft. India did drag this process out as well and took too long and kept the French waiting. France had little choice and closed the production lines down. I think Greece's Mirage 2000-5 mk2 were the last Mirages made or should say upgraded.

The older Mirage 2000s India has which are loved by their pilots could be upgraded but most likely are going to ware down over time. I see the India's over time forming one or one and half squadrons from the three squadrons now to keep them flying. They are old C models bought after the India has horrible times dealing with Russia over the Mig-29s. India held the Mirages over the Russian heads until spares started showing up and the engines worked more then 20 hours and breaking down. I read once that every single India Fulcrum had problems, not some, not half, but all. It was three or fours years after the Fulcrum ordeal that India setup repair and maintenance centers and began learning to service there own Mig-21/23/ and 29s up to a point. India actually began producing some of the spares themselves but of the lack of workmanship on the Russia equipment.

The current Mig-29 while still flying for India would share a simlur logistics problem with any new built Mig-29M or Mig-35s, sub-systems, engines, radar, weapons, aren't the same. Not on the level as going from early Mirage 2000 to Rafale but still many changes. Since Russia doesn't produce much modern equipment I would think Inda's ground personnel would pick up faster working on a new type Fulcrum then learning how to support Rafale or Hornets.
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Still feel India pilots would go crazy flying in a modern Rafale, Gripen, of Hornet if given the chance. To me India has so many choices Pakistan has less then 40 modern Vipers. Not sure what China has on India's border I assume Su-30MK2/J-10/J-7? Any idea?
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Taiwan lost out France went with the bigger contracts business plain in simple. I assume Airbus has a lot of government pull and the Rafale's fighter industry doesn't. I think Taiwan might have been a maybe first customer for the Rafale?
 
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The thing is you can sell these things at cost and once they have purchased them you can charge them full price for the spares, you will soon make up and cash lost on the sale
 
Hi LeEnfield
I agree to me France should have got an off-set price squadron out there and make up the difference later with service and weapons. This way the Rafale has a public sale and the lemon rep it's getting would go away. France can always just knock off this squadron on the end numbers of the production run earmarked for their own forces. It seems like there almost unwilling to give in on the price or something I don't understand. Seems like a capable platform and time is against them.

In 2015 or so when the F-35 production line is ramped up LM will be building 200+ fighter or more per year. Even if its a little better then an F-16 they could have another be winner on their hands. All it takes is a few nice size orders and the price dips a little under $100 mil per, France's Rafale and UK's Tyhpoon, well could be in real trouble. If the RCS is good enough for the F-35 to get into first shot position on 4th generation platforms its sales will go through the roof. Its a pretty safe bet the design already does that now one would assume.
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