French pool bars Muslim woman for 'burquini' suit (AP)
MontyB
All-Blacks Supporter
To be honest I don't have a problem with this, the French have set their standards and clearly plan to enforce them, as long as they are equally zealous with the symbols and garb of all religions then it is hardly prejudicial just extreme secularism.
mmarsh
Active member
The French don't believe in integration. You are either accept French culture or you don't come here. This is made very clear to all new arrivals, French Law and Culture is the only law of the land. People are allowed to practice their faith and culture as long as it doesn't attempt to supersede those of France.
One of the core tenets of French culture is that of Strict secularism. Any attempt seen to impose a religion in public will be rooted out. The French view the Burka as a symbol of enslavement, that's why its not tolerated in any public venue.
Well..I see no discrimination in the "no burquini" allowed at the pool. But plain common sense, hygiene, public health rules and regulation for sharing same pool water.;-)
Same "no no" into place for anyone not wearing regular swimming suit, just following the whatever specific rules around where people resides, etc.
I do remember years ago when few Brazilian ladies were invited to leave the public pool park (here in the USA, south) because wearing very small, indecent tong style bikinis. They did not read the rules placed very visible big letters, at the park pool entrance. then Brazilian community newspaper wrote an article advising women to not wear their small bikinis at public pools, etc IF they do not want to be embarrassed by someone asking them to leave the pool.
Conclusion: extremes may not be allowed in most public places, better follow the rules. My motto.
Same "no no" into place for anyone not wearing regular swimming suit, just following the whatever specific rules around where people resides, etc.
I do remember years ago when few Brazilian ladies were invited to leave the public pool park (here in the USA, south) because wearing very small, indecent tong style bikinis. They did not read the rules placed very visible big letters, at the park pool entrance. then Brazilian community newspaper wrote an article advising women to not wear their small bikinis at public pools, etc IF they do not want to be embarrassed by someone asking them to leave the pool.
Conclusion: extremes may not be allowed in most public places, better follow the rules. My motto.
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senojekips
Active member
For what it's worth, the French just went up 10 points in my eyes.
captiva303
Active member
secularism in its extreme is a bit rough though...
mmarsh
Active member
I dont agree and neither would the French. The French swam in blood for 800 years due to wars caused between Christians fighting Muslims and Jews, but espicially fighting other Christians...
The Conclusion of the French Revolution was Religion and Politics don't mix. And since Religon was banned from political office by the revolution, there havent been any religious wars on French Terriitory.
The French aren't they only ones who have adopted this attitude. The Turkish Constutition is strictly secular and that is inforced by the military whose primary mandate is to make sure religion doesnt interfere in state affairs.
It's terrific. Australia was all about multi-culturalism in the 90's and now no one wants a bar of it because they've seen all the problems it has produced.
On religion, I think getting a black man into the white house was easy compared to getting an Atheist in there.
Did the person kicking them out get booed?
On religion, I think getting a black man into the white house was easy compared to getting an Atheist in there.
Did the person kicking them out get booed?
I have to say that I was not into US politics at all, really plain ignorant.. but since last elections, 1st time participated in another board political threads etc I then start to see some display from some in the right wind, Conservatives and Religious, would not allow that (and other stuff) to happen without great great fight..lol
:mrgreen:
You know..I guess many around were very unconfortable with those ladies showing up in not covering much bumbum style bikinis..in a family, lots of kids, public park in Atlanta, Ga, (suburbs). The showing butt cheeks, it's is not commom style bikini in US and Canada, people are very much discret regarding swimwear..I guess even in Florida beaches there are rules regarding bikini styles.(???)
I do come from beach culture and around beach people that are much into fitness and body image also (your own culture is pretty much reckon for people into fitness, more then mine, or others! I think so..) because there is sun (good weather all year around almost) and much showing off bodies culture is the natural reality. Then people wearing tiny bikinis or speedos tend to be fit and slim bodies..of course body types do vary and people are just free to wear what they desire..well, depends the laws, rules and regulations around..here we go in circles..hehe..
senojekips
Active member
Most of these persons who complain, left their original country because of the fact that those countries choices of lifestyle and politics had turned them into basket cases. Why is it then, that the expatriates upon arriving in their country of choice immediately start trying to make their newly adoptive country more like the sh!tehole they just left?
If you don't like it,... go back. Don't bring your unfinished business and bad habits here.
If you don't like it,... go back. Don't bring your unfinished business and bad habits here.
I do think that those who complaint for real and serious about it, go into other steps as suing/marching/etc about the rules, and are those into individual/human rights issues and others issues, as racial tensions, immigrants groups tensions, etc.
In the case of Muslim the burqa issue is settled by the politicians already as not welcome in France, clearly. The problem is that the burqas and burqkinis are wear of religious women following their religions, not another cloth in womens wardrobes, as in the case Brazilian case I mentioned, the women did not read the rules before entering the pool (that is not an excuse, to claim: "I did not know the rules". You gonna pay the fine anywyas..lol) and Brazilian women generaly have many biquinis, she can wear freely by their own choices, next time knowing the rules they would chose a more discret one for sure, most will.
In the case of Muslim burqa women, they have to wear those. Very different situation, they do not have a choice to not wear those. They will have to stay home or keep out, where burqas and burkinis are not allowed. As western women have to embrace Muslim orthodox countries wear and manners also, while in their territories. Yep, we must conform with different nations rules, I do agree with that.
In the case of Muslim the burqa issue is settled by the politicians already as not welcome in France, clearly. The problem is that the burqas and burqkinis are wear of religious women following their religions, not another cloth in womens wardrobes, as in the case Brazilian case I mentioned, the women did not read the rules before entering the pool (that is not an excuse, to claim: "I did not know the rules". You gonna pay the fine anywyas..lol) and Brazilian women generaly have many biquinis, she can wear freely by their own choices, next time knowing the rules they would chose a more discret one for sure, most will.
In the case of Muslim burqa women, they have to wear those. Very different situation, they do not have a choice to not wear those. They will have to stay home or keep out, where burqas and burkinis are not allowed. As western women have to embrace Muslim orthodox countries wear and manners also, while in their territories. Yep, we must conform with different nations rules, I do agree with that.
captiva303
Active member
hmmm maybe not...
the misrepresentation and lack of under standing of what secularism is about is the extreme part.
fingolfin361
Active member
that have anything to do with recent recurring racial attacks on indian students in Victoria? i dunno how it's perceived there, or if at all it's even covered enough to form opinions, but here it's been making huge news. though no doubt sensationalised by our generally immature TV media.
senojekips
Active member
That is more than I could say, however, I feel that it is more likely the work of a "gang" of young people who for reasons of their own have chosen to target an individual group. This type of racial attack is certainly not accepted by the majority in Australia, although from time to time there are public feelings of "ill will" against groups of foreigners of one type or another particularly if they are in the public eye for any reason. Illegal immigrants, local gangs, criminal activity or even where they tend to settle too densely in a particular area.
In the 1870s it was the Chinese, in 1950s it was the Italians then the Vietnamese boat people, more recently the Lebanese in western suburbs of Sydney. One by one they come, they are in the news until a new "target" appears and then they are forgotten. In a generation, they are all just Australians.
I would say from my own personal experience there is far more suspicion of the "visible Moslem" population at the moment, than the Indian student population.
I live in an area where there are "old" Afghan families and they are all held in high regard, their assimilation is complete and all that makes them different is that they tend to be swarthier than the average local and their family names among the menfolk. Rasheeds, Khans, and Basheers etc.
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MontyB
All-Blacks Supporter
But is it strictly secular?
Do the same rules apply to wearing Christian or Jewish symbols that apply to wearing Muslim ones?
Personally I have no problem with banning all of these things but I do have issues if they are only targeting one particular group.
03USMC
Active member
I've read other articles on this and it appears to me (feel to correct me if I'm wrong marsh) that the rules governing public swimming pools in France are set by the Ministrey of Health and are pretty much set in stone and apply to everyone.
This is only about religion because thats how it's being packaged ..... as an anti-islam slight.
Agree 100% with Spike ...."Don't try and turn tour new home into the mud hut you just left"
Conform or go the hell back where you came from.
This is only about religion because thats how it's being packaged ..... as an anti-islam slight.
Agree 100% with Spike ...."Don't try and turn tour new home into the mud hut you just left"
Conform or go the hell back where you came from.
mmarsh
Active member
That's just it, YES THEY DO.
The difference is that Christians and Jews have been living in France a very long time and both have basically accepted and agreed with France's secularism. This is why the Vatican gets so angry with the French, because French Catholics don't march to the same tune as the Vatican would like. You remember the headscarf ban, what wasn't published was than ban also applied to large Crucifix and Jewish Yamikas (Skullcaps).
So the law absolutely is fair. Even older Muslims families (those that have been here a few generations) know that in France secularism is absolute and they generally don't have a problem with it. Its the new immigrants who feel they are being persecuted.
USMC03, is correct that this particular ban is due because is a public heath menace.