The French may lose again

F-16 appears to be way cheaper, easier to handle and the government selling it is way more stable than that of Rafael
 
Phoenix
As if you know anything about the French Government, your constant trolling is getting tiresome.

Rock
Frankly the F-16 although a inferior aircraft is probably the better deal. The F-16 is more comapreable the The Mirage-2000-5-D.
Morocco isnt a huge country and the better robustness of the F-16 (not to mention the price) probably the better deal.
 
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Rafale

mmarsh- I am a fan of the Rafale and think it is a first rate fighter and would like to see flying in five or six different air forces around the world. Since your from France according to your profile is it a "Dassault Aviation" problem for not being able to get this fine aircraft finished and selling in the world market or is a government "thing" for project slow down, like by cut funding or something along those lines? I thought the Rafale has a 60/40 shot on getting the Greece's order at one time but I think that may have pasted. Being on the outside here and not really knowing how Frances government works really it would seem Dassault Aviation top management need changing. Don't you think getting some new blood on top would help? Do you feel how the aircraft was marketed was done correctly? Thanks
 
This is one of the main problems in Europe and one of the reasons a number of countries have got together to produce produce aircraft like the Tornado and the Typhoon. The French have kept out of this agreement as they want to be charge all the time.
 
warhappy100 said:
F-16 maybe inferior but still selling cause its cost effective.
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F-16C/D Block 52 is not really an inferior aircraft... Rafael is just not the right option for those countries which don't want to go through a lot after they buy the aircraft. French government/industry has a habit of backstabbing its clients.
 
phoenix80 said:
Thats true! But I think their Mirage aircraft was a success! I'd be willing to buy Mirage 2000 for my virtual air force.
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Psshhhh.... what a push over. My virtual Air Force uses Seiner Fleet Systems' Tie Interceptor Fighters... Much better design.

300px-Tieinterceptor.jpg


PS - My virtual air force also owns page 2
 
The biggest problem is the cost these days of of R & D. It is not just the plane it is all the Electronics and software that makes it stand out from the rest.
 
Slight update - Sarkozy To Pitch Rafales to Morocco

A slight upgrade I found thought I would add it into the thread.

PARIS — French President Nicolas Sarkozy is expected to throw his political weight behind efforts to sell the Rafale fighter jet when he makes a state visit to Morocco at the end of October, in a bid to counter a U.S. offer of F-16s, French newspapers reported Sept. 21.
“The Elysées [presidential office] has taken the matter in hand,” Le Monde reported. The president’s spokesman, David Martinou, told journalists Sept. 20 “the Rafale is a good deal,” and experts view it as “the best plane in the world.”
Morocco has effectively decided in favor of a U.S. offer of 36 F-16s for less than $2 billion, La Tribune reported on its Web site. As a riposte, the French authorities have proposed 24 Rafales for 2 billion euros ($2.8 billion), or 12 Rafales and 12 Mirage 2000-9 fighters, the most capable of the 2000 series, the paper reported. A previous offer consisted of 18 Rafales for 2.3 billion euros.

Link to story
http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?F=3055464&C=europe
 
phoenix80 said:
F-16C/D Block 52 is not really an inferior aircraft... Rafael is just not the right option for those countries which don't want to go through a lot after they buy the aircraft. French government/industry has a habit of backstabbing its clients.
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Thats second time you country bashed on this thread without offering any evidence to backup your hate mongering. I expect you to provide Proof for this 'history' of backstabbing, If you don't, I'll report you for country bashing and trolling.

Moving on.

The F-16 might be a deal for Morocco, but the Rafale is superior aircraft. As is the F-22, Typhoon, the SU-35/37/42, and the Gripen. The F-16 is a Gen 4 fighter with an airframe thats over 30 years old. The Rafale is a Gen 5 and compared to the F-16 it is stealthier, more menuverable, and has a passive scan electronics system, one of the very few that does. Everything else is comparable. The best advantage the F-16 has is price.

The F-16 is a capable aircraft but its no longer state of the art. Just like the P-51, F-86, F-4 and the F-14 its now in the twilight of its career.


LeEnfield

Your mistaken it had nothing to do with pride. The reason the France backed out of the Typhoon project was because the UK, Spain and West Germany cancelled the carrier based version. That was a deal breaker for France because it would mean it would have to build or buy a new fighter for its NAVY to replace the Mirage F1 and the antique F-8 Crusader.
 
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rock45 said:
A slight upgrade I found thought I would add it into the thread.

PARIS — French President Nicolas Sarkozy is expected to throw his political weight behind efforts to sell the Rafale fighter jet when he makes a state visit to Morocco at the end of October, in a bid to counter a U.S. offer of F-16s, French newspapers reported Sept. 21.
“The Elysées [presidential office] has taken the matter in hand,” Le Monde reported. The president’s spokesman, David Martinou, told journalists Sept. 20 “the Rafale is a good deal,” and experts view it as “the best plane in the world.”
Morocco has effectively decided in favor of a U.S. offer of 36 F-16s for less than $2 billion, La Tribune reported on its Web site. As a riposte, the French authorities have proposed 24 Rafales for 2 billion euros ($2.8 billion), or 12 Rafales and 12 Mirage 2000-9 fighters, the most capable of the 2000 series, the paper reported. A previous offer consisted of 18 Rafales for 2.3 billion euros.

Link to story
http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?F=3055464&C=europe
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Well, those north African countries are former French colonies. They might consider it! but no sane government in the world should go for French stuff. Plus just like their automobiles, they are rough and hard to maintain. Not really simple. I had a mechanic telling me that if you want to change a wire in a french car engine, you have to dis-assemble the whole engine to be able to cut the wire but the same situation in a Japanese or American car is a simple exercise of cutting the wire or replacing it.

French stuff like any other thing French look nice but dont work nice!
 
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Not 5th generation

mmarsh
I don't agree that a Rafale is 5th generation only F-22 and F-35 fall under 5th generation. To me F-16 are 3rd ++ maybe early 4th in the later models and Rafale's and EF2000 are 4th and 4th ++ types. I agree that Rafales are a little more stealthier then Vipers because of a small RCS from frontal veiws. I still think Vipers are more well rounded at a attacker since the final models of the Rafale's are produced yet. What I mean is Mirage 2000-5s still mark their ground targets for them and the final touches aren't complete. I expect the Rafale to be better in ways then a Viper because it's a newer design. Going back a few post's I was asking you who would be at fault for the last five years of how to say it in a nice way, slow progress? To me the aircraft seems to be good performer I still don't have a clear picture on "why" there aren't any sales yet.
For both the Rafale and EF2000 down the road I think in under three years time a slightly smaller AESA radar will be made for block 40/50 Vipers. Once this happen and then add another 15 miles range onto the Slammer no escape zone and second hand Vipers are still going to nasty to beat. Does France have a newer radar in the works? Another question I have for you is there public information on MICA upgrades to their missiles over the years? I'm trying to follow their progress in the range if increased. I read in Greece forum that their pilots rate the Mica over first released Slammers thanks.
 
I have decided to here on in to ignore our Iranian-Canadian Troll. The fact he can't and wont back up his claims, and his obvious bigotry speaks volumes.

Rock45

I am going to retract slightly what I said earlier. Technically the Rafale, Gripen, and the Typhoon II are Gen 4.5 because they were originally designed like a GEN 4 aircraft but their long developments cycles allowed them to incorporate Gen 5 technology especially in terms of electronics. The only pure Fifth Gen aircraft in operation is the F-22A.

As to why there aren't any sales. I can think of 2 reasons.

1. First its a very competitive Market, the Rafale has to compete against the JSF, the Typhoon II, the JAS-39 Gripen, plus the slightly inferior but much less expensive 4th Gen like the F-16, the Mig-29, the SU-30, and the ultra-cheap Chinese F-7 and F-10.

2. Right now, the Rafale is too expensive. The average cost is about $50 Million a copy. The F-16 is only $25 Million. However once the US starts offering the JSF (at about $60 Million for the F-35A) and the EU Typhoon II is at $68 Million you will start to see more orders (at least, so Dessault hopes). Its chief competition I think will be the JAS-39 Gripen which is about the same price, eventually the JSF as well if they can bring the price down.

Actually I think the electronics systems on the Rafale are quite good espicially in AtG. It also has a passive scan radar (no antenna), like a submarines sonar, This is not the same thing as passive radar, passive rader follows an active rader beam back to its source, a passive-scan 'listens' for the electronic noise of targets. They also are working on a new terrain-following navigational rader, but it wont be ready until 2010.

The biggest problem for the Rafale is its armament. Basicially while the aircraft is new, its weapons aren't. Right now it uses the older MICA, the U.S AMRAAM, and the Magic II (for short range). These are good, but they don't really take advantage of the aircraft abilities. France, the UK, Italy, and Germany are working on the MBDA METEOR, which will be carried by the Gripen, Typhoon II, and Rafale. I have an uncle who was working on that project (he now works on anti-ballistic, interceptor missiles) and whilst he couldn't say very much (as its all classified) he says it will be the best AtA medium range missile on the market. Its designed to be superior to both the US AMRAAM and the Russian R-77. Now he could be bias in that opinion, but then again he has spent 30 years working on missiles and rockets and has extensively studied the competition.
 
rock45 said:
mmarsh
I don't agree that a Rafale is 5th generation only F-22 and F-35 fall under 5th generation. To me F-16 are 3rd ++ maybe early 4th in the later models and Rafale's and EF2000 are 4th and 4th ++ types. I agree that Rafales are a little more stealthier then Vipers because of a small RCS from frontal veiws. I still think Vipers are more well rounded at a attacker since the final models of the Rafale's are produced yet. What I mean is Mirage 2000-5s still mark their ground targets for them and the final touches aren't complete. I expect the Rafale to be better in ways then a Viper because it's a newer design. Going back a few post's I was asking you who would be at fault for the last five years of how to say it in a nice way, slow progress? To me the aircraft seems to be good performer I still don't have a clear picture on "why" there aren't any sales yet.
For both the Rafale and EF2000 down the road I think in under three years time a slightly smaller AESA radar will be made for block 40/50 Vipers. Once this happen and then add another 15 miles range onto the Slammer no escape zone and second hand Vipers are still going to nasty to beat. Does France have a newer radar in the works? Another question I have for you is there public information on MICA upgrades to their missiles over the years? I'm trying to follow their progress in the range if increased. I read in Greece forum that their pilots rate the Mica over first released Slammers thanks.
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You're right.

Rafael is not a 5th generation aircraft for sure. At best it is 3.5 generation. EF2000 is also a 4th generation.

F-22 is the only operational type of 5th generation aircrafts in the world.
 
To redesign the Typhoon to operate from carriers would have added billions to the development figure and just how many of these types of plane would we have been able to sell world wide. Britain was already committed to building the JSF STOL type with America, and as the country that would have required the Typhoon Naval version was France I can't why we should pay all that extra money for a couple squadrons of aircraft for the French Carriers.
 
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