Flag-folding Recitations for Vets Banned Because of Religious Content

[pixiedustboo]

RIVERSIDE,California - Complaints about religious content have led to a ban on flag-folding recitations by Veterans Administration employees and volunteers at all 125 national cemeteries. It all started because of one complaint about the ceremony at Riverside National Cemetery in California.

During thousands of military burials, the volunteers have folded the American flag 13 times and recited the significance of every fold to survivors. For example, the 12th fold glorifies "God the Father, the Son and Holy Ghost."


The complaint revolved around the narration in the 11th fold, which celebrates Jewish war veterans and "glorifies the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob." The National Cemetery Administration decided to ban the entire recital at all national cemeteries. Details of the complaint weren't disclosed.


Administration spokesman Mike Nacincik said the new policy outlined in a Sept. 27 memorandum is aimed at creating uniform services throughout the military graveyard system. He said the 13-fold recital is not part of the U.S. Flag Code and is not government-approved. Veterans and honor detail volunteers, including Bobby Castillo, 85, and Rees Lloyd, 59, are furious. "That the actions of one disgruntled, whining, narcissistic and intolerant individual is preventing veterans from getting the honors they deserve is truly an outrage," Lloyd said. "This is another attempt by secularist fanatics to cleanse any reference to God."


World War II Navy veteran Castillo said it's "a slap in the face to every veteran." "When we got back from the war, we didn't ask for a whole lot," Castillo said. "We just want to give our veterans the respect they deserve. No one has ever complained to us about it. I just don't understand." Lloyd and Castillo are part of a 16-member detail that has performed military honors at more than 1,400 services. They were preparing to read the flag-folding remarks at the Riverside cemetery when graveyard staff members stopped them.


Charlie Waters, parliamentarian for the American Legion of California, said he's advising memorial honor details to ignore the edict. "This is nuts," Waters told the Riverside Press-Enterprise by telephone from Fresno. "There are 26 million veterans in this country, and they're not going to take us all to prison."


Nacincik said that though the flag-folding narrative includes references to God that the government does not endorse, the main reason for the new rules is uniformity. "We are looking at consistency," Nacincik said. "We think that's important."


Rabbi Yitzhak Miller of Temple Beth El said he understands the ban. "It is a perfect example of government choosing to ignore religion in order to avoid offending some religions," Miller said. "To me, ignoring religion in general is just as problematic as endorsing any one religion."


Article Link
http://www.onenewsnow.com/2007/10/flagfolding_recitations_for_ve.php

 

[Gator]

World War II Navy veteran Castillo said it's "a slap in the face to every veteran."

He is a liar, as it is no slap in the face to me, and he has no business pushing his religious views on people who may not wish to hear them at the time while they lay loved ones to Rest on Federal Government Property.

He must think America lost the War and that there is no longer Separation Between Church and State.

As for the American Legion (Open to non-Combat Veterans) well they have no right on Federal Property if they are going there to break the Law, and, seems Mr. Waters thinks America lost the War as well, seeing how he feels he can do what he wants and the United States Government is powerless to stop him on Federal Property.

If they are that upset, don't use the Federal Veterans Cemetery, take them to a Bible Thumping Private Cemetery and say whatever they like, or perhaps a State Controlled Veterans Cemetery and try their luck.

 

[Del Boy]

He is a liar, as it is no slap in the face to me, and he has no business pushing his religious views on people who may not wish to hear them at the time while they lay loved ones to Rest on Federal Government Property.quote.


The exception that proves the rule. The 1 in 26,000,000.

 

[03USMC]

He is a liar, as it is no slap in the face to me, and he has no business pushing his religious views on people who may not wish to hear them at the time while they lay loved ones to Rest on Federal Government Property.

He must think America lost the War and that there is no longer Separation Between Church and State.

As for the American Legion (Open to non-Combat Veterans) well they have no right on Federal Property if they are going there to break the Law, and, seems Mr. Waters thinks America lost the War as well, seeing how he feels he can do what he wants and the United States Government is powerless to stop him on Federal Property.

If they are that upset, don't use the Federal Veterans Cemetery, take them to a Bible Thumping Private Cemetery and say whatever they like, or perhaps a State Controlled Veterans Cemetery and try their luck.

And you know what. It's still a crap,knee jerk, insensative ruling. It's a veterans funeral it should be up to the vet's wishes and his families request. The vet earned the right to be buried there by his service, peacetime, war time or otherwise. They could have belly dancers and juggling midgets for all I care.

And who would"nt think that you'd actually hear ref's to God at a Judeo-Christian funeral, or Allah at a Muslim funeral? This is that height of PC farce in the land of fruit and nuts.

 

[The Other Guy]

If you don't want it, you should request so beforehand.

 

[Chief Bones]

Government edict and the kook fringe ...

And you know what. It's still a crap,knee jerk, insensative ruling. It's a veterans funeral it should be up to the vet's wishes and his families request. The vet earned the right to be buried there by his service, peacetime, war time or otherwise. They could have belly dancers and juggling midgets for all I care.

And who would"nt think that you'd actually hear ref's to God at a Judeo-Christian funeral, or Allah at a Muslim funeral? This is that height of PC farce in the land of fruit and nuts.

-03-
I agree with you 100% ... it is a funeral for a vet, and the service should be IAW the vet's and the family's wishes ... not some kook fringe member or government edict. As far as Nacincik is concerned, his comments are as full of BS as he is ... this just another case of Political Correctness run amok and vets are the targets of this crap..

And, Gator ... you ARE an exception. For sure as can be, I want my funeral to be IAW my wife's and my family's wishes ... NOT YOUR'S or any other kook fringe that thinks they know whats best for MY funeral. IF you want YOUR funeral to be held with absolutely NO mention of God/Gods/meaning of the flag folds or any other folderol, that is YOUR privilege and YOUR right.



That is one of the things we fought and died for.

 

[Gator]

-03-
I agree with you 100% ... it is a funeral for a vet, and the service should be IAW the vet's and the family's wishes ... not some kook fringe member or government edict. As far as Nacincik is concerned, his comments are as full of BS as he is ... this just another case of Political Correctness run amok and vets are the targets of this crap..

And, Gator ... you ARE an exception. For sure as can be, I want my funeral to be IAW my wife's and my family's wishes ... NOT YOUR'S or any other kook fringe that thinks they know whats best for MY funeral. IF you want YOUR funeral to be held with absolutely NO mention of God/Gods/meaning of the flag folds or any other folderol, that is YOUR privilege and YOUR right.






That is one of the things we fought and died for.

"I want my funeral to be IAW my wife's and my family's wishes ... NOT YOUR'S"

Don't use my Cemetery then.

You think you get to pick and choose things you like and still get put in the Ground at a Federal Veterans Cemetery?
If you do, you are mistaken, try getting a non-standard Marker, try putting a non-standard Symbol on the Marker.

And I'm Catholic, I'll do just fine when I'm put in the Ground at a National Veterans Cemetery.
You may view the Holy Roman Church as fringe, don't know, don't care, but I'll hazard a guess and say that if you are not Catholic there are more of us than there are of you, unless you are Muslim that is.

Now, good thing is there is no, I repeat no Federal Law stating that just because you or any other person pulled some time in the United States Military that you have to be planted at a Federal Veterans Cemetery.

So, you can plan ahead and plan to have people dance around you in a Pagan Ritual, make a Marble mockup of your naked butt and use it for a Marker, with the inscription that people should kiss it as they walk by for all I care, because I do not care, but on Federal Property there are rules, and the rules will be followed, don't like it? Don't use the VA.

Way I see it, if a Satan Worshiper cannot pay homage to his lord and master at a Federal Veterans Cemetery during a Flag Folding ritual then neither can you, too bad, so sad.
Why is it so hard for people to actually read and understand the United States Constitution?
Good thing this is America and not some Dictatorship, so, you or anyone else don't like the ruling from the DVA?.... Sue.
Let the High Court hear your case. Hurry before too many of your brethren are kept out of your Heaven because words cannot be said while folding a flag, if indeed that be the case with your Religion.

 

[Chief Bones]

IT'S NOT JUST YOUR CEMETERY .....

Gator
Notice just how rabid you can be. Too bad you can't allow others the same choices and rights for themselves that you are claiming for yourself. I have paid my dues to God and country the same as you have and you don't have any more rights to your beliefs than I do to mine ... but ... I notice you would deny me the right to have a burial service IAW my beliefs (and would stand by while the VA whittles away at another veteran right). Instead you would force your beliefs onto myself and my family and applaud while the VA puts it to us again. Are we citizens of the same country? I don't believe you are ... at least NOT the country I fought and shed blood for..

And by the way ... IT'S NOT JUST YOUR CEMETERY ... IT BELONGS TO ALL OF US ... whether YOU like it or NOT, we have ALL paid a price for the right to be buried at a Federal Veterans Cemetery if we so choose ... some of us have paid a higher price than you ever have or will. So don't tell me it's 'YOUR CEMETERY' ... you haven't earned the right to claim a veteran cemetery as your own.

Since I am forbidden by forum rules, I can't really tell you what to do with your opinion or your post.

 

[Gator]

....and you have no Legal Right to claim a Veterans Benefit as a Right in Law where no Benefit or Law exist. But that is from time to time the MO a few of you people (Vietnam) claim when you do not believe you are getting your just due, I say if you would have Won the War things may have worked out a little different for you on the home front, but things did not work out that way.
So, now down to brass tacks.... follow the Law, or move to another Nation, see what you get there, or see about getting the Law changed here to something you like better, or learn to live with it.
I doubt the Court will see it as a Right you have earned though your Military Service though, seeing how having a Religion is not required to Serve in the Military, doing it to begin with, as was pointed out, is not in the US Flag Code, nor is it in the US Constitution that Military Veterans have what you seem to view as a "Right" in Law to say such things while folding the US Flag at Veterans Funerals on US Government Property, I checked, it is not in the Constitution.
Now, I believe that certain Bible Thumpers may have told someone that they did not have a choice in the matter, and that if they wanted their loved ones put in the ground there that the invocation of God, and his friends the Holy Spirit and Jesus.... along with others, was a must, but I don't know for sure, that’s just a best guess.
The initial complaint would not have had as much weight if it was totally voluntary and explained that it is in no way connected to the Federal Government, just something nice a few Volunteers do as a favor to the Family.
I view rights for everyone as equal, as does the Government in this case, as it is just not allowed any more, for anyone.

Think of it along the same lines as Prayer in Public Schools, and how the Federal Government dealt with that issue, thus ending years of Forced Brainwashing by the Government and unwanted Indoctrination using a Bible which may not have been the same one kids used in Church, and even viewed by said Church as apocryphal.
The Federal Government did not say that everyone can bring their own Bible to School and have the Teacher read from each one, perhaps then to have the Codex Gigas read if someone in class holds such a faith and asked for it to be read, no, the Federal Government said no to everything across the board, and it worked out fine. Although I have heard some of the same whining I see with this issue, things along the lines of "fighting for a Nation that does not allow a god in Public Schools" and such.
You seem to want "special" rights for yourself, and you seek to take away Rights from others you personally disagree with, this is not my opinion, but, by your Posting in this and another Thread seems to be a Fact.
http://www.military-quotes.com/forum/373166-post.html

You seek to take away Religious Freedom and Freedom of Speech in the case of a Religion doing something you personally disagree with, but you want your own Religion to have Special Rights within the United States Government.
Funny how that all works out.
There is a Chapel at the Veterans Cemetery, how about doing Religious things there, and not making out like the Federal Government is directly involved in Denominational Religious Matters on Federal Government Property.
some of us have paid a higher price than you ever have or will
How many limbs did you lose in the Military again?.... This "us" you post about who are on your side and still among the living who has paid more of a Price for Freedom than I, how many limbs did they lose? Is Mr. Waters one of them? Do you know him?
Any limbs at all gone or no longer working? One even?
What else you got? I'll start with eyes, you missing eyes? Oh, that's right, how would you see the Computer Screen.... perhaps just one eye missing?... I'm very fortunate to have both of mine in good working order, so, you missing even one would go a long way with me.
Anything at all missing?... well, other than, what was it, one year of you life in a Combat Zone?
And tell me... why is it you seem to view Veterans who hold no Religion as kooks, or lesser than you?... or even, in my case, merely holding perhaps a different Religion than you.
I also find it strange that you have yet to meet a god, and yet you put your god before the Nation, that says a lot about you as a Patriot, in my opinion.
As for your last line.... well, unless the new rule changes back, you will not get your wish with regards to this issue, even if you die and want to get put in the Ground at a Veterans Cemetery, yet, I don't seem to be having any trouble at all with the new rule, so, such must really have you up in Arms…. oh, well, you being a Revolutionary at Heart, perhaps a better choice of words on my part.... it does seem to have you upset, so why not let it all out?

 

[pixiedustboo]

Everyone comes in and says things about the separation of church and state. And everyone agrees it should be that way, right?

So why exactly do you have to get a marriage license from the state? A marriage is a religious ceremony and a vow between God and a couple, nothing to do with the state.

(Not trying to go off topic, just a point).




Here's what I have to say about this flag topic:

Well, pretty soon there won't be anything to take away that has any moral or basic human meaning in the United States. That's all right though, at least no one will be offended. No one that matters anyhow. [Christians]

I think it's time we take our "One Nation Under God" back, because I'm not liking the nation we are turning into now. A nation that allows child molesters out after serving 2 years. A nation that allows rapists out on "good behavior." A nation that has jurors that vote in favor of the burglar who is suing the owner of the house he broke into and got hurt when he fell through a window. A nation that thinks that a 17 year old having consensual oral sex with a 15 year old deserves 10 years of prison time. A nation where they would rather have a man die than have a man defend his home a family because "guns are scary." A nation that has forgotten our founders.

 

[major liability]

Normally I agree with the separation of church and state, but this is going way overboard. If someone finds it offensive that you MENTION religion on federal property at a ceremony for veterans...

THEY CAN GO SOMEWHERE ELSE. THEY CAN HOLD THEIR EARS. THEY are the ones imposing, NOT YOU.

I'm not even a believer and I'm furious over this, it's lunacy. Charlie Waters is right, this needs to be ignored.

 

[Del Boy]

03, Chief Bones, ML - I am with you all the way. It does my heart good to see your stand for the Vets, whatever their paths. They served your country.

To those who disagree I would say that the word is RESPECT, closely followed by HONOUR.

In this day and age, we can do with a good measure of both, and USA is perhaps one of the last champions of both.

Unbelievable that anyone would wish to turn them away. And like ML - I am speaking as a man, all other agendas put to one side.


-------------------------------------
Give me liberty or give me death.

 

[Gator]

So why exactly do you have to get a marriage license from the state? A marriage is a religious ceremony and a vow between God and a couple, nothing to do with the state.

Why are there State Veterans Homes and Cemeteries then when the Federal Government also has Nursing Homes and other Long Term care facilities, and Federal Veterans Cemeteries?

One being controlled by the State, one by the Federal Government.

You will notice that I already Posted that disgruntled Veterans may wish to try a State Veterans Cemetery and not a Federal One.

The Federal Government does not issue a Marriage License, a State within the United States does, and a Marriage need not be Religious, as people not being Religious can still get Married in a Civil Service before someone not of the Cloth so to speak.

Here's what I have to say about this flag topic:

Well, pretty soon there won't be anything to take away that has any moral or basic human meaning in the United States. That's all right though, at least no one will be offended. No one that matters anyhow. [Christians]

I think it's time we take our "One Nation Under God" back, because I'm not liking the nation we are turning into now. A nation that allows child molesters out after serving 2 years. A nation that allows rapists out on "good behavior." A nation that has jurors that vote in favor of the burglar who is suing the owner of the house he broke into and got hurt when he fell through a window. A nation that thinks that a 17 year old having consensual oral sex with a 15 year old deserves 10 years of prison time. A nation where they would rather have a man die than have a man defend his home a family because "guns are scary." A nation that has forgotten our founders.

The United States of America is not a "Christian" Nation, and as per the Treaty of Tripoli, was not Founded on the Christian Religion.

Also, the Founding Fathers made sure to leave "God" out of the United States Constitution, even though being a small word, it would have been easy to slip that in there in a number of places.

"I think it's time we take our "One Nation Under God" back"

The phrase "Under God" was not put into the Pledge until the 1950s, not very long ago at all when one thinks about it.
World War II Veterans said the Pledge in School without it, and still won the War, go figure.

"A nation that thinks that a 17 year old having consensual oral sex with a 15 year old deserves 10 years of prison time"

I'm told the wages of sin are Death, so he should be thankful he is not living in a more Puritan time.

And if you do not like it here, well, there are nations on Earth where Religion is more important to the state than this one, Nations where the Religion and the State are one, called a Theocracy.... why not move to one of those?

Normally I agree with the separation of church and state, but this is going way overboard. If someone finds it offensive that you MENTION religion on federal property at a ceremony for veterans...

THEY CAN GO SOMEWHERE ELSE. THEY CAN HOLD THEIR EARS. THEY are the ones imposing, NOT YOU.

I'm not even a believer and I'm furious over this, it's lunacy. Charlie Waters is right, this needs to be ignored.

Why have any Laws? Why not just allow everyone to do what they wish at any time?

So, if a person was told that to be Dropped into the Ground at a Federal Veterans Cemetery that during the Flag Folding Part they would say the incantation no matter what, even if the Person being Planted held no Religion, and if the Family didn't like it they can take him some place else..... that would be OK with you, the Family just hold thier ears? What if someone in the Family reads lips, should they close their eyes as well?
That All Veterans need a Religion on the list used in the incantation, (which seems to be tilted "Christian"), and that if you have none one will be issued by the Federal Government..... that's what you think should happen in America?

 

[pixiedustboo]

I'm not looking to push God into everything. Not at all. But I am looking to not pushing him out of EVERYTHING to the point of forgetting that we are a nation that was founded on Christian beliefs - and yes, we allow our beliefs AND others to practice as they wish.

I just don't believe we should have to hide everything about God so we don't risk "offending" anyone. That is what this is all about, offending different peoples who complain because they don't like seeing crosses around. It's religion right now, but what are people going to take away next? Or allow next? In some CA schools they have already banned the term "mother" and "father" and "husband" and "wife" so homosexuals aren't offended. Is there something wrong with that, or is it just me?

"A nation that thinks that a 17 year old having consensual oral sex with a 15 year old deserves 10 years of prison time"

I'm told the wages of sin are Death, so he should be thankful he is not living in a more Puritan time.

When we are letting child molesters out (real child molesters - not something like the above) and a kid this age gets put in prison, or threatened with prison...something is seriously wrong. IMO.

 

[Gator]

to the point of forgetting that we are a nation that was founded on Christian beliefs -

That is just not true.

From the very time of the Founding Fathers.......

Treaty of Tripoli

Authored in 1796, sent to the floor of the Senate, June 7, 1797, read aloud in its entirety and unanimously approved.
John Adams, having seen the treaty, signed it and proudly proclaimed it to the Nation.

Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

 

[pixiedustboo]

That is just not true.

From the very time of the Founding Fathers.......

Excuse me, founded by Christian BELIEVERS

 

[Gator]

Excuse me, founded by Christian BELIEVERS

You see how you wish to make America "Christian" only?

 

[Chief Bones]

Gator your

"....and you have no Legal Right to claim a Veterans Benefit as a Right in Law where no Benefit or Law exist". ............. is so much BS.

VA qualifications (from their site), are and I

"Burial in a national cemetery is open to all members of the armed forces and veterans who have met minimum active service duty requirements and were discharged under conditions other than dishonorable. Their spouse, widow or widower, minor children, and, under certain conditions, unmarried adult children, may also be eligible for burial. Eligible spouses and children may be buried, even if they predecease the veteran. Members of the reserve components of the armed forces who die while on active duty or while performing training duty, or were eligible for retired pay, may also be eligible for burial."

So you see, I and others who have served a 'minimum' amount of ACTIVE time in the military DO qualify ... and ... IT IS A BENEFIT AND A RIGHT (which we earned) IAW THE VETERAN'S ADMINISTRATION GUIDELINES.

As far as the rest ... it is NOTHING but your opinion (rude and demeaning though they are) and you know what they say about opinions?




By the way, I consider your posts (and you), to be rude and demeaning to those who have served honorably in every hell hole from Heart Break Ridge to the deserts of Iraq (violation of rules/guidelines). Just because you have a problem with those who disagree with the latest VA edict, doesn't excuse the comments you have directed to me and to others. Since I am an honest and up-front person, be advised I have reported these posts to the mods/admin. [It was either that, or use language that would have resulted in my being banned] ... Good day to you sir ... enjoy the day.

 

[Gator]

Gator your
VA qualifications (from their site), are and ISo you see, I and others who have served a 'minimum' amount of ACTIVE time in the military DO qualify ... and ... IT IS A BENEFIT AND A RIGHT (which we earned) IAW THE VETERAN'S ADMINISTRATION GUIDELINES.

As far as the rest ... it is NOTHING but your opinion (rude and demeaning though they are) and you know what they say about opinions?




By the way, I consider your posts (and you), to be rude and demeaning to those who have served honorably in every hell hole from Heart Break Ridge to the deserts of Iraq (violation of rules/guidelines). Just because you have a problem with those who disagree with the latest VA edict, doesn't excuse the comments you have directed to me and to others. Since I am an honest and up-front person, be advised I have reported these posts to the mods/admin. [It was either that, or use language that would have resulted in my being banned] ... Good day to you sir ... enjoy the day.

Sadly, I'm going to have to place you on Ignore Chief, as I already have gotten one Infraction in this Thread for being disrespectful to you, but, I'll add that I was posting about the Right you seem to view you have that the Government say the Incantation while Folding the Flag, which is what has changed, and not putting you in the Ground there, which was not the issue at hand.

Have a good one Chief, and take care of yourself.

 

[pixiedustboo]

You see how you wish to make America "Christian" only?

Oh, that would be nice wouldn't it? *Smiles brightly.*

No, seriously, I just want to be respected as a Christian and not have every law changed purely on the basis that it offends one person. Heaven forbid America "offends" someone.

I don't see why all of a sudden we have to change things and make Christian's into the bad guys, when it's the history of this nation is of a Christian faith. A history of a Christian nation that allows others to practice what they believe in. Pray away or don't - it's your choice, just don't take mine away from me because a three letter word scares you.

"Political correctness means always having to say you're sorry."