Firearms Possession discussion (in response to yet another US shooting)

[George]

Gun related deaths per 100,000 in the UK - 0.22 (2009)
Gun related deaths per 100,000 in the US - 2.98 (2009)

Our gun crime rates are nothing like America's either.

Answer me this. Just why do all civilians need access to assault rifles?

In reality gun violence in the UK wasn't high before Dunblaine either. You have a much lower rate level than us, ect.
Assault Rifle...now we talking about here is...a semi auto rifle that cosmeticly looks like a military selective fire rifle that operates on a completly different system, not a machine gun. Kinda like banning a guys car here in town because he has a Dale Earnhardt Jr decal kit on it that makes it look like a NASCAR car, but isn't. The 5.56/.223 round is a light rifle round, not nearly as powerfull as most hunting rounds, & the AK-47 is about like a 30/30 Winchester, so...ban them & they use more powerfull rounds with less chance of survival. Flash suppressor, not really usefull, bayonet lug is only usefull if out of ammo, most remember to bring ammo with them. seperate handhold, increases accuracy, if you can ban handholds for that.. does that mean optical sights next & doesn't the antis claim the reason to ban "Saturday Night Specials" is they aren't asccurate? Can't have it both ways. Folding or collapseable stocks probably aren't a factor in school shootings. There might be an argument for banning high cap mags, but there's been high cap mags since the Broomhandle, P-35, Winchesters & Henrys with up to 16 rounds, ect.
Think we need to look at those psycotropic drugs a bit more closely.

 

[captiva303]

Actually no, Norway, Finland, Holland, and Germany have faced "massacres" too. Canada had a school shooting, just a few weeks after Columbine, even if the amount of casualties were quite low at that event.

If this shooting spree does open the policy window in the US, I think it is too late to realistically change anything. The amount of firearms owned by civilians and/or available in the civilian market are about 250-280 million (ATF) The amount of legal firearms owner are about 150 million.

The data about firearms related crimes in the US are declining and it has done that the latest ten years. The data is also describing what kind of firearms used, the majority of crimes committed with firearms is handguns. Semiautomatic rifles used in homicides are quite low. (FBI)

I don't completely view this as a gun problem, it is a social problem. How shall the society catch people with major social problems? How can the society reduce their access to firearms? Who shall catch them? Do socio-economic factors contribute to the problem?

Don't read this the wrong way.

I am probably not going to say this right . It's culturally acceptable to massacre people in the US. I don't mean that the population approves of it. But there is cultural thing... if you meet a certain set of circumstances and you have been pushed over the edge. It seems like the thing to do. Because so many others have done it. The desperate/ crazy see it as their course of action that they should take.

The whole copy cat phenomena.

I am also not sure how effective a ban or increased gun controls would be in a firearms saturated society like the US. How do you implement it?

 

[captiva303]

I personally feel there is less of a legitimate reason for the ownership of handguns then there are for assault rifle like weapons. But that is just from my experiences with agriculture and pest control in Australia.

 

[I3BrigPvSk]

Don't read this the wrong way.

I am probably not going to say this right . It's culturally acceptable to massacre people in the US. I don't mean that the population approves of it. But there is cultural thing... if you meet a certain set of circumstances and you have been pushed over the edge. It seems like the thing to do. Because so many others have done it. The desperate/ crazy see it as their course of action that they should take.

The whole copy cat phenomena.

I am also not sure how effective a ban or increased gun controls would be in a firearms saturated society like the US. How do you implement it?

That's what I mean with the policy window, the term means when the opportunity/demand of changing the current policy or policies. I heard a police officer in Philly when he said "if we (US, Americans) change the 2nd A now, it will be too late. It will be like closing the barn door when the horse has already escaped"

 

[lolwhassup]

Answer me this. Just why do all civilians need access to assault rifles?

They don't. Maybe if you didn't listen media hype and misuse of of the term assault rifle, you would understand. An assault rifle is a rifle with a detachable magazine, with a selector lever that can put the weapon on semi or full automatic,and use of an intermediate cartridge.

An AR-15 is NOT an assault rifle, in fact it is just a regular semi automatic rifle, like a M1 Garand or M1A. Just because it looks like a military "assault rifle" doesn't make it one.

Yes full automatic "assault rifles" are legally available in the US, however they are EXTREMELY expensive, and requires the owner to have a class 3 FFL.

Even then you Europeans and Aussies can compare what happens in your country to ours, but understand this, you DO NOT have a population of over 330 million people with an existing surplus of over 280 million legally available firearms. Even if you institute a complete firearms ban, how in the hell are you going to stop criminals from getting firearms?

The only people who follow firearms restrictions and bans are law abiding citizens. A criminal will get a fully automatic assault weapon, regardless of whether or not the average civilian can own a simple semi-automatic rifle or handgun.

Case in point.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWsJo7bMvNE"]Gun Gripes Episode 34: Media misinformation - YouTube[/ame]

 

[m551sheridan]

As William S. Burroughs once said, “After a shooting spree, they always want to take the guns away from the people who didn’t do it.”

 

[Capt Frogman]

Actually no, Norway, Finland, Holland, and Germany have faced "massacres" too. Canada had a school shooting, just a few weeks after Columbine, even if the amount of casualties were quite low at that event.

You're quite right. But Norway has "only" had 1 massacre, Finland has had 2, Holland was had 1 and Germany has had 3. (please correct my figures if incorrect).

Compare this with the USA where there's been 3 massacres this year and 3 last year. Let's not forget the many other US massacres over the past 50 years.

The data is also describing what kind of firearms used, the majority of crimes committed with firearms is handguns. Semiautomatic rifles used in homicides are quite low. (FBI)

I wasn't saying all the shootings involved assault rifles. I'm just curious as to why Americans feel the need to have access to one? I don't feel the need here in the UK....

 

[Capt Frogman]

*yawn* Why is it always foreigners who think they know best what America needs and should do on every topic, especially this one? -SMH- I'm done with this topic. I'm sick to death of listening to close-minded idiots, who think they know everything when they really know nothing, repeating the same BS over and over and over.

Yeah, you've got the issue under control :roll::

From September 1986 to September 1990:

At least 71 people (65 students and 6 school employees) had been killed with guns at school.
201 were severely wounded by gun fire.
242 individuals were held hostage at gunpoint.

1992–1993 (44 Homicides and 55 Deaths resulting from school shootings in the U.S.)
1993–1994 (42 Homicides and 51 Deaths resulting from school shootings in the U.S.)
1994–1995 (17 Homicides and 20 Deaths resulting from school shootings in the U.S.)
1995–1996 (29 Homicides and 35 Deaths resulting from school shootings in the U.S.)
1996–1997 (23 Homicides and 25 Deaths resulting from school shootings in the U.S.)
1997–1998 (35 Homicides and 40 Deaths resulting from school shootings in the U.S.)
1998–1999 (25 Homicides from school shootings in the U.S.)
1999–2000 (25 Homicides from school shootings in the U.S.)
2000–2001 (19 Deaths resulting from school shootings in the U.S.)
2001–2002 (4 Deaths resulting from school shootings in the U.S.)
2002–2003 (14 Deaths resulting from school shootings in the U.S.)
2003–2004 (29 Deaths resulting from school shootings in the U.S.)
2004–2005 (20 Deaths resulting from school shootings in the U.S.)
2005–2006 (5 Deaths resulting from school shootings in the U.S.)
2006–2007 (38 Deaths resulting from school shootings in the U.S.)
2007–2008 (3 Deaths resulting from school shootings in the U.S.)
2008–2009 (10 Deaths resulting from school shootings in the U.S.)

That doesn't include the 3 massacres each in 2011 and 2012.

I should be thankful that none of my relatives live in or are educated in the US.

 

[Capt Frogman]

They don't. Maybe if you didn't listen media hype and misuse of of the term assault rifle, you would understand. An assault rifle is a rifle with a detachable magazine, with a selector lever that can put the weapon on semi or full automatic,and use of an intermediate cartridge.

An AR-15 is NOT an assault rifle, in fact it is just a regular semi automatic rifle, like a M1 Garand or M1A. Just because it looks like a military "assault rifle" doesn't make it one.

Yes full automatic "assault rifles" are legally available in the US, however they are EXTREMELY expensive, and requires the owner to have a class 3 FFL.

Even then you Europeans and Aussies can compare what happens in your country to ours, but understand this, you DO NOT have a population of over 330 million people with an existing surplus of over 280 million legally available firearms. Even if you institute a complete firearms ban, how in the hell are you going to stop criminals from getting firearms?

The only people who follow firearms restrictions and bans are law abiding citizens. A criminal will get a fully automatic assault weapon, regardless of whether or not the average civilian can own a simple semi-automatic rifle or handgun.

Case in point.

Gun Gripes Episode 34: Media misinformation - YouTube

With respect, don't lecture me on the difference between fully automatic and semi automatic firearms. I had been trained to use and was using military firearms before you were even conceived. I've served in the military for more years than you've been alive. I need no lecture from an 18 year old kid.

 

[Capt Frogman]

As William S. Burroughs once said, “After a shooting spree, they always want to take the guns away from the people who didn’t do it.”

They wouldn't need to if there weren't so many frequent massacres.

 

[Capt Frogman]

In reality gun violence in the UK wasn't high before Dunblaine either. You have a much lower rate level than us, ect.
Assault Rifle...now we talking about here is...a semi auto rifle that cosmeticly looks like a military selective fire rifle that operates on a completly different system, not a machine gun. Kinda like banning a guys car here in town because he has a Dale Earnhardt Jr decal kit on it that makes it look like a NASCAR car, but isn't. The 5.56/.223 round is a light rifle round, not nearly as powerfull as most hunting rounds, & the AK-47 is about like a 30/30 Winchester, so...ban them & they use more powerfull rounds with less chance of survival. Flash suppressor, not really usefull, bayonet lug is only usefull if out of ammo, most remember to bring ammo with them. seperate handhold, increases accuracy, if you can ban handholds for that.. does that mean optical sights next & doesn't the antis claim the reason to ban "Saturday Night Specials" is they aren't asccurate? Can't have it both ways. Folding or collapseable stocks probably aren't a factor in school shootings. There might be an argument for banning high cap mags, but there's been high cap mags since the Broomhandle, P-35, Winchesters & Henrys with up to 16 rounds, ect.
Think we need to look at those psycotropic drugs a bit more closely.

Thr UK has one of the lowest rates of gun homicides in the world with 0.22 recorded intentional homicides committed with a firearm per 100,000 inhabitants compared to the United States' 2.7 and to Germany's 1.1.

Our firearms laws state that fully automatic (submachine-guns, etc.) and self-loading (semi-automatic) weapons of calibre larger than .22 are totally banned, pistols are limited to .22 calibre in short barrel, while calibres up to .357 magnum are allowed in long barrel pistols (of total length at least 60*cm). Single-barrelled, double-barrelled shotguns, or those with a lever-action or, pump-action, or semi-automatic and fixed magazine capacity of no more than two cartridges are permitted on a Shotgun Certificate. Shotguns with a detachable magazine or larger fixed magazine are permitted on a Section 1 Firearms Certificate.

With all of our rules on firearms possession, we very rarely get massacres. Must just be a coincidence...!

 

[m551sheridan]

They wouldn't need to if there weren't so many frequent massacres.

Stevens is correct, it does not good to try to converse with you folks....... maybe you have bent a knee for to long and unable to hunt the *Kings* land to understand - I, like her will not comment further on this thread.

 

[MontyB]

Stevens is correct, it does not good to try to converse with you folks....... maybe you have bent a knee for to long and unable to hunt the *Kings* land to understand - I, like her will not comment further on this thread.

Or maybe it is because people struggle to understand how a nation of well educated, progressive and civilised people can allow this sort of thing to happen over and over again without doing a damn thing about it.

 

[lolwhassup]

With respect, don't lecture me on the difference between fully automatic and semi automatic firearms. I had been trained to use and was using military firearms before you were even conceived. I've served in the military for more years than you've been alive. I need no lecture from an 18 year old kid.

With respect to your service as well, I understand your point of view, but calling a simple semi-automatic rifle, an "assault weapon" is a bit of a stretch don't you think? It's like calling my sporterized M1903A3 a "sniper rifle".

 

[Capt Frogman]

With respect to your service as well, I understand your point of view, but calling a simple semi-automatic rifle, an "assault weapon" is a bit of a stretch don't you think? It's like calling my sporterized M1903A3 a "sniper rifle".

I wasn't calling any "simple semi-auto" rifle an "assault weapon". I don't know what weapons were used in this shooting.

I was making a general point about "proper" assault rifles. In the UK, you cannot under any circumstances own an automatic or semi-auto. In the US, it is possible to own an automatic or semi-auto. I struggle to see why anyone would require such a firearm without a damn good reason? (certain jobs excluded).

The UK has some of the toughest gun control laws in the world. If you want to own a gun, it is very difficult to do so. In short, it has been designed to put as many barriers in the way as possible and to assume the worst, rather than hope for the best.

In the United States, you can declare that it is your constitutional right to bear arms. But in the UK, you need to spend hours filling in paperwork and proving that you are not a danger to society.

 

[Capt Frogman]

Lolwhassup - also, your own countries (now expired) law classed some semi-auto weapons as "assault rifles":

"The term was most notably used in the language of the now-expired Public Safety and Recreational Firearms Use Protection Act of 1994, more commonly known as the Federal Assault Weapons Ban, which expired in 2004. The federal assault weapons ban specifically prohibited 19 guns considered to be assault weapons. These were all semi-automatic firearms, meaning that they can eject spent shell casings and chamber the next round without additional human action, but (as opposed to automatic firearms) only one round is fired per pull of the trigger.[1] In addition to the 19 weapons specifically prohibited, the federal assault weapons ban also defined as a prohibited assault weapon any semiautomatic rifle with a detachable magazine and at least two of the following five items: a folding or telescopic stock; a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon; a bayonet mount; a flash suppressor or threaded barrel (a barrel that can accommodate a flash suppressor); or a grenade launcher. The act also defined as a prohibited assault weapon semi-automatic pistols that weighed more than 50 ounces when unloaded or included a barrel shroud, and barred the manufacture of magazines capable of carrying more than 10 rounds."

 

[lolwhassup]

Lolwhassup - also, your own countries (now expired) law classed some semi-auto weapons as "assault rifles":

"The term was most notably used in the language of the now-expired Public Safety and Recreational Firearms Use Protection Act of 1994, more commonly known as the Federal Assault Weapons Ban, which expired in 2004. The federal assault weapons ban specifically prohibited 19 guns considered to be assault weapons. These were all semi-automatic firearms, meaning that they can eject spent shell casings and chamber the next round without additional human action, but (as opposed to automatic firearms) only one round is fired per pull of the trigger.[1] In addition to the 19 weapons specifically prohibited, the federal assault weapons ban also defined as a prohibited assault weapon any semiautomatic rifle with a detachable magazine and at least two of the following five items: a folding or telescopic stock; a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon; a bayonet mount; a flash suppressor or threaded barrel (a barrel that can accommodate a flash suppressor); or a grenade launcher. The act also defined as a prohibited assault weapon semi-automatic pistols that weighed more than 50 ounces when unloaded or included a barrel shroud, and barred the manufacture of magazines capable of carrying more than 10 rounds."

I know that was during the era known as the Clinton gun ban. They don't anymore thank god. :cheers: But as Brig has said, the majority of the crimes committed are by handguns. So my access to a semi-auto or even a full auto affects the crime rate by a small margin.

 

[Tankboy]

Stevens is correct, it does not good to try to converse with you folks....... maybe you have bent a knee for to long and unable to hunt the *Kings* land to understand - I, like her will not comment further on this thread.

Or maybe you can't justify, having all your toys!.

I think that's 2-zip to Capt Frogman.

 

[Trooper1854]

I have read the pro gun lobby state that if someone at the school had a gun this could have been stopped.
Doesn't the logic that if he never had access to guns in the first place then this wouldn't have happened?
They go on about their rights to own guns, what about the rights of the twenty children to live a full life with out a maniac walking into their school and mudering them?
What about the rights of their parents to watch their children grow, mature, live full lives and have their own children?
What the hell has to happen in the USA for them to realise that they need to reign things in regarding guns?

 

[Tankboy]

I have read the pro gun lobby state that if someone at the school had a gun this could have been stopped.
Doesn't the logic that if he never had access to guns in the first place then this wouldn't have happened?
They go on about their rights to own guns, what about the rights of the twenty children to live a full life with out a maniac walking into their school and mudering them?
What about the rights of their parents to watch their children grow, mature, live full lives and have their own children?
What the hell has to happen in the USA for them to realise that they need to reign things in regarding guns?

Well put,however. Nothing will change.
It is their right to bear arms!.
No President would dare touch that right.
Some are saying."if the teachers were armed" this could have been prevented.
It is a mentality thing, not a common sense thing.
Like pouring petrol on a fire, to put it out.
You really couldn't make it up.