Firearms Possession discussion (in response to yet another US shooting)
The point is...if the guns, by their presence, are the cause of the violence, then the UK should have had an epidemic of domestic violence while those guns were issued, didn't happen. mass shootings
Capt Frogman
Brit Pack (Troop Commander)
As I said, things were very different in 1940 compared with today.
BritinBritain
Per Ardua Ad Astra
Strange how people are trusted with all manner of kit when there's a war, yet when its over they can't be trusted.
Erm, the Home Guard protecting the country???
Maybe, maybe not.
No it doesn't, there are laws against murder, robbery, drug dealing, rape but they haven't stopped or even slowed down murder etc. The simple fact is, criminals ignore laws, that's why they are criminals.
Maybe not on this particular drug, but other drugs are in the spotlight.
http://www.cchrint.org/school-shooters/
Fact: Despite 22 international drug regulatory warnings on psychiatric drugs citing effects of mania, hostility, violence and even homicidal ideation, and dozens of high profile school shootings/killings tied to psychiatric drug use, there has yet to be a federal investigation on the link between psychiatric drugs and acts of senseless violence.
Fact: Between 2004 and 2011, there have been over 11,000 reports to the U.S. FDA’s MedWatch system of psychiatric drug side effects related to violence. These include 300 cases of homicide, nearly 3,000 cases of mania and over 7,000 cases of aggression. Note: By the FDA’s own admission, only 1-10% of side effects are ever reported to the FDA, so the actual number of side effects occurring are most certainly higher.
Fact: At least fourteen recent school shootings were committed by those taking or withdrawing from psychiatric drugs resulting in 109 wounded and 58 killed (in other school shootings, information about their drug use was never made public—neither confirming or refuting if they were under the influence of prescribed drugs.) The most important fact about this list, is that these are only the shooters where the information about their psychiatric drug use was made public.
To give an example, although it is known that James Holmes, suspected perpetrator of a mass shooting that occurred July 20, 2012, at a movie theater in Aurora, Colorado, was seeing psychiatrist Lynne Fenton, no mention has been made of what psychiatric drugs he may have been taking. Also note that all these mass shootings didn’t just occur in the United States.
Huntsville, Alabama – February 5, 2010: 15-year-old Hammad Memon shot and killed another Discover Middle School student Todd Brown. Memon had a history for being treated for ADHD and depression. He was taking the antidepressant Zoloft and “other drugs for the conditions.” He had been seeing a psychiatrist and psychologist.
Kauhajoki, Finland – September 23, 2008: 22-year-old culinary student Matti Saari shot and killed 9 students and a teacher, and wounded another student, before killing himself. Saari was taking an SSRI and a benzodiazapine. He was also seeing a psychologist.
Dekalb, Illinois – February 14, 2008: 27-year-old Steven Kazmierczak shot and killed five people and wounded 21 others before killing himself in a Northern Illinois University auditorium. According to his girlfriend, he had recently been taking Prozac, Xanax and Ambien. Toxicology results showed that he still had trace amount of Xanax in his system. He had been seeing a psychiatrist.
Jokela, Finland – November 7, 2007: 18-year-old Finnish gunman Pekka-Eric Auvinen had been taking antidepressants before he killed eight people and wounded a dozen more at Jokela High School in southern Finland, then committed suicide.
Cleveland, Ohio – October 10, 2007: 14-year-old Asa Coon stormed through his school with a gun in each hand, shooting and wounding four before taking his own life. Court records show Coon had been placed on the antidepressant Trazodone.
Red Lake, Minnesota – March 2005: 16-year-old Jeff Weise, on Prozac, shot and killed his grandparents, then went to his school on the Red Lake Indian Reservation where he shot dead 7 students and a teacher, and wounded 7 before killing himself.
Greenbush, New York – February 2004: 16-year-old Jon Romano strolled into his high school in east Greenbush and opened fire with a shotgun. Special education teacher Michael Bennett was hit in the leg. Romano had been taking “medication for depression”. He had previously seen a psychiatrist.
Wahluke, Washington – April 10, 2001: Sixteen-year-old Cory Baadsgaard took a rifle to his high school and held 23 classmates and a teacher hostage. He had been taking the antidepressant Effexor.
El Cajon, California – March 22, 2001: 18-year-old Jason Hoffman, on the antidepressants Celexa and Effexor, opened fire on his classmates, wounding three students and two teachers at Granite Hills High School. He had been seeing a psychiatrist before the shooting.
Williamsport, Pennsylvania – March 7, 2001: 14-year-old Elizabeth Bush was taking the antidepressant Prozac when she shot at fellow students, wounding one.
Conyers, Georgia – May 20, 1999: 15-year-old T.J. Solomon was being treated with the stimulant Ritalin when he opened fire on and wounded six of his classmates.
Columbine, Colorado – April 20, 1999: 18-year-old Eric Harris and his accomplice, Dylan Klebold, killed 12 students and a teacher and wounded 26 others before killing themselves. Harris was on the antidepressant Luvox. Klebold’s medical records remain sealed. Both shooters had been in anger-management classes and had undergone counseling. Harris had been seeing a psychiatrist before the shooting.
Notus, Idaho – April 16, 1999: 15-year-old Shawn Cooper fired two shotgun rounds in his school, narrowly missing students. He was taking a prescribed SSRI antidepressant and Ritalin.
Springfield, Oregon – May 21, 1998: 15-year-old Kip Kinkel murdered his parents and then proceeded to school where he opened fire on students in the cafeteria, killing two and wounding 25. Kinkel had been taking the antidepressant Prozac. Kinkel had been attending “anger control classes” and was under the care of a psychologist.
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Same Laws didn't seem to work in Northern Ireland, why's that?
Capt Frogman
Brit Pack (Troop Commander)
Probably because they are soldiers and not civilians?
I was talking about civilians keeping weapons at home. They were (potentially) living in a war zone.
No maybe not about it. Crime was low. You could leave your doors open/unlocked. Etc etc.
According to the stastics, crime levels are down. Our gun crimes are low compared with many countries.
Perhaps we need to ask why so many American's are on antidepressants then?
Capt Frogman
Brit Pack (Troop Commander)
They don't work because it's Northern Ireland.
Unlike mainland UK, the situation in N.I. is very different. The reason? Paramilitaries/terrorist groups.
Anyone even attempting to compare mainland UK with N.I. is either stupid, naive or both.
The country as a whole is tripping over itself in an effort not to offend anyone, for any reason. There is no accountabilty for anything. Everything is always someone else`s fault. If anyone does anything wrong, it`s because they didn`t get hugged enough, are misunderstood, etc. It was just a matter of time before it filtered down to the Army. Hopefully, that trend reverves itself at some point.
As far as you complaining....a Private griping about the Army is as old as the Army itself. If the Privates aren`t complaining, then something is wrong. It`s kind of a tradition.
Maybe you can change your MOS at some point. I`m not sure what the rules are now, they change frequently. In the meantime, be the best soldier you can be, and stay motivated.
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BritinBritain
Per Ardua Ad Astra
Yet they have proven themselves to be competent to use firearms.
In some parts of London it is a bloody war zone.
According to Mad Frankie Frasier war time London was "a thieves paradise."
I'm very suspicious of "official" crime statistics all too often they are fudged. Crime statistics in South Africa states that crime is lower then last year, yet the crime clear up rate has dropped from 6% to .5% (half a percent).
A few years ago there was a conference in South Africa attended by mainly anti gun organisations. Among those attending was a spokeswoman from the Home Office, a friend of mine attended the conference and he asked "If crime in UK is so low, why are the gun laws so restrictive." The reply he got was, "British gun laws are nothing to do with crime." According to the BBC, "At present there are no official statistics on the origin of firearms used in crimes on the streets of Britain."
Perhaps popping pills is the easiest way out then long drawn out and expensive treatment.
But if it's the gun Laws that make the difference, i. e. we brits don't have crime because OF THE GUN LAWS, why is N.I. "different"...or did you guys agree with the IRA to suspend the gun laws so you could have a war?, are Terrorist/Paramilitary groups exempt? Or are you saying they work in England to keep the peace, they don't work in N.I., but they'll work here, that's a stretch.
Capt Frogman
Brit Pack (Troop Commander)
I'd like to think soldiers would be more competent to use firearms compared to civilians. After all, they were trained to use their weapons?
But nothing like WW2 though?
Were people shot and/or massacred?
Hence why I said "according" to the figures.
Ah yes, the Home Office. If they said it, then it must be right!
I'll get back to you on the origin of firearms used statistics.
Probably, although Obama's changes should change this?
Capt Frogman
Brit Pack (Troop Commander)
It's "different" because N.I. has many active terrorist groups where as the rest of the UK hasn't.
The makeup of N.I. is very different to the rest of the UK and the US. I haven't got the time to explain it. Google is your friend.
Unless you've walked the streets of Belfast, have been shot at and watched your friends die there, it's hard to put it into words.
The point is..y'all are trying to say if we here just adopted the gun laws that keep the UK calm & peacefull that the US will become calm & peacefull, while trying to explain how that there's something "different" about N.I., but it'll work its magic in the US. Either your gun laws have a magical effect on people or it doesn't. I know about the Protestant/Catholic thing, but how do Terrorist get guns despite your gun laws if they're so wonderfull? Or are you admitting the only ones in the US with guns will be the Cops & the Drug Gangs, plus common criminals that won't turn them in anyway?
Capt Frogman
Brit Pack (Troop Commander)
You just don't get it, do you?
It's one island that's split into 2 countries that were and still are at each others throats.
During "The Troubles", there were weapons being shipped in left, right and centre. Those weapons are still out there, despite what various terrorist groups say. Let's also not forget that the various terrorists groups are still active because they are still "at war". The political and religious situation throws any firearms laws out the window.
Nothing like the situation in N.I. has affected England, Wales and Scotland in modern times. Therefore availability of weapons isn't there and neither is there a political and/or religious will.
I'll say it again. Trying to use N.I. in your argument makes you sound stupid and/or naive.
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The Highway Man
Brit Pack 2I/C
I've investigated many terrorist weapons finds in N.I. whilst serving in Weapons Intelligence. For every container load found - yes that's "Shipping Container" full of weapons, there were at least 2 or 3 times that smuggled into the country right under the noses of the authorities. The only weapons the paramilitaries handed in during decommissioning were ones past their best to show willing at the "political table"
So just admit it, you great gun control laws were a total failure in N.I., why do you think they would work here? They only seem to work in England with a compliant population
The Highway Man
Brit Pack 2I/C
Northern Ireland is an anomaly in the UK, armed struggles have taken place there for centuries. You know as well as I do, terrorism is a completely different ball game when it comes to arms control. Al Quada caused enough fatalities on your shores as the IRA has done on ours.