Fighting on the enemies terms

The best way to combat terrorism is to ensure that people in general don´t evolves into terrorists. It´s a police and intelligence task. To find them before they strike. But you will never be able to eradicate all terrorists. There will always be some idiot who has a twisted idea he pursues.

One thing is terrorists, another insurgent.

The Taliban, for example, are not terrorists. They may be called partisans or whatever you want. Those you fight most effectively with hearts and minds. The strongest and most legitimate warrior is the one with popular support. Remove this support and you remove the foundation and deliberate killing of civilians is not a good way to make friends.

Situations will occur where my survival depends on killing civilians, but then I´ll have my back against the wall with no other options.

Oh, don´t call me Sir. I´m an NCO - I work for a living. :mrgreen:

But how?
Through extreme brainwashing?
Indoctrination?
As long as people have "freedom" these extremist will pop up.
Freedom, in my humble opinion, is one of the absolute evils: it leads to different thoughts, which leads to conflict.
Another is emotion.
As long as we are prone to either one, or both, war be around.

We are incapable to prevent people to go extreme, unless we get a totalitary domination, where each individual is brainwashed in such waty that he has the exact same thought as his neighbor, that he has the exact same house, car, monetary value.
Thus effectively depriving the individual of jealousy, and freedom of thought.
Basically, we'd be living in Equilibrium.

But that is not a valid option, we do not have the technology or medical knowledge to do this en masse.
Which leaves us, that we have to deal with the situation, or am I incorrect?

And in that case, I suggest the extreme.
Prevent (or try to) by fear...
Harsch, yes, but I think, effective as well...
 
In insurgency warfare, this tactic will backfire big time.
I see my job as the protector of the innocent even if they belong to the enemy. It´s a problem, but it should never be solved by "Kill them all"

But the question is how innocent are the innocent?

Scenario 1:
Gunmen take over a hotel or a theatre holding hostages as human shields.

Scenario 2:
Head of terrorist organisation lives in a large compound with family and friends.

Scenario 3:
Head of a terrorist oganisation is known to be in an apartment but the apartment complex dwellers do not know he is there.

Surely Scenario 1 and 3 require some finesse when bringing about a resolution because you have a situation where civilians are unaware of or unable to do something about the danger they are in but scenario 2 is much more clear cut as they know the danger they have put themselves in and have chosen to be there.

Therefore civilian casualties in scenario 2 are in my opinion almost irrelevant.

But how?
Through extreme brainwashing?
Indoctrination?
As long as people have "freedom" these extremist will pop up.
Freedom, in my humble opinion, is one of the absolute evils: it leads to different thoughts, which leads to conflict.
Another is emotion.
As long as we are prone to either one, or both, war be around.

We are incapable to prevent people to go extreme, unless we get a totalitary domination, where each individual is brainwashed in such waty that he has the exact same thought as his neighbor, that he has the exact same house, car, monetary value.
Thus effectively depriving the individual of jealousy, and freedom of thought.
Basically, we'd be living in Equilibrium.

But that is not a valid option, we do not have the technology or medical knowledge to do this en masse.
Which leaves us, that we have to deal with the situation, or am I incorrect?

And in that case, I suggest the extreme.
Prevent (or try to) by fear...
Harsch, yes, but I think, effective as well...

I think we need to get our heads around the idea that there will always be extremists for example the killing of abortion doctors and the bombing of their offices etc. in the USA were carried out by extremists but nobody felt it was necessary to call out the army to deal with it.

The best thing that could be done to fight terrorism is to combat the conditions that drive people to become terrorists.
 
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But the question is how innocent are the innocent?

Scenario 1:
Gunmen take over a hotel or a theatre holding hostages as human shields.

Scenario 2:
Head of terrorist organisation lives in a large compound with family and friends.

Scenario 3:
Head of a terrorist oganisation is known to be in an apartment but the apartment complex dwellers do not know he is there.

Surely Scenario 1 and 3 require some finesse when bringing about a resolution because you have a situation where civilians are unaware of or unable to do something about the danger they are in but scenario 2 is much more clear cut as they know the danger they have put themselves in and have chosen to be there.

Therefore civilian casualties in scenario 2 are in my opinion almost irrelevant.



I think we need to get our heads around the idea that there will always be extremists for example the killing of abortion doctors and the bombing of their offices etc. in the USA were carried out by extremists but nobody felt it was necessary to call out the army to deal with it.

The best thing that could be done to fight terrorism is to combat the conditions that drive people to become terrorists.

I don't think we can compare a few attacks by extremist in the US with the mass murdering committed by say ISIS. If this were the case we could write a book on so called terrorist attacks. These very limited actions like the French independence movement in Canada, the attacks on Abortion clinics, the attacks by the occasional extremist groups to the right or left are usually dealt with sufficiently by the local police. Where as ISIS is responsible for thousands of murders, perhaps 10's of thousands. They are a large organization numbering in the 10's of thousands and have heavy conventional weapons. They require a strong military solution. To truly knock them out might cost the lives of a few civilian deaths since as it's been stated they hide amongst the civilians. But if one is going to fight to win this will save lives in the end. A stepped up US air presence stationed in nearby Turkey would help rather than a handful of jets flying in from all the way in the Gulf. Some kind of ground force to supplement the bombing and actually take terraferma is also needed. The Kurds can't do it alone as they battle for Kobani for the 2nd straight month, they don't have the heavy equipment.
 
I don't think we can compare a few attacks by extremist in the US with the mass murdering committed by say ISIS.
I cannot but completely disagree here.
An attack is an attack, no matter who's behind it.
Let's take as example a coup from within the white house: that is an attack, and the attacker should be, IMHO, be delt with in the hardest possible manner.
Whether the attacker is a nobleman or a terrorist: it was an attack.

Abortion clinics: Now from a personal point of view I understand actions vs such clinics.
To me they are nothing more than abattoirs.
I do not know how severe the attacks are, but if the attacks are more vandalism than personal attacks, I can live with it.
Once a person however is harmed in any way, I cannot but disagree.
Again: this is from a personal state of mind.
That is me.
An opinion.
Nothing more.
 
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I cannot but completely disagree here.
An attack is an attack, no matter who's behind it.
Let's take as example a coup from within the white house: that is an attack, and the attacker should be, IMHO, be delt with in the hardest possible manner.
Whether the attacker is a nobleman or a terrorist: it was an attack.

Abortion clinics: Now from a personal point of view I understand actions vs such clinics.
To me they are nothing more than abattoirs.
I do not know how severe the attacks are, but if the attacks are more vandalism than personal attacks, I can live with it.
Once a person however is harmed in any way, I cannot but disagree.
Again: this is from a personal state of mind.
That is me.
An opinion.
Nothing more.

I don't condone killing in either case. I don't disagree that if someone is killed in the attack he must be charged and prosecuted according to the law. Murder is murder. I just can't put the killing of an abortion doctor in the same category as ISIS.
 
I said, than I can agree with vandalism, not with attacking a doctor.
If someone does this, then yes, he should be taken in, the hard way.
I fully agree there.

EDIT: Question: do you condone abortion?
To me, that is just as criminal as any other murder, one kills a life form.
I CAN agree when it is for medical reason (terminal disease, extreme health problems, for either the mother or the baby), or in specific cases of rape.
But any other reason is totally unacceptable, in my book.
An abortion doctor is no more than a Charles Manson!
Sadly, this sociopath is protected by law.
 
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I have an ad hoc opinion about abortions. There are socio-economic factors involved in the decision to get children. In the end, I think it is up to the people involved to make the decision about it.

This thread is changing a bit, hehe
 
@ Kirzillian

Have you served in a combat zone?
Coming face to face with the enemy gave me a whole new outlook on life.

And as a USMC Gunny once said to me; War is like a poker game - Sometimes you hold all the aces, but you've got to know when to bluff and know when to fold and walk away.
It seems like you view the world as black and white.
It´s not always violence is the solution.
 
I have an ad hoc opinion about abortions. There are socio-economic factors involved in the decision to get children. In the end, I think it is up to the people involved to make the decision about it.

This thread is changing a bit, hehe
In my world there is only one that determines whether an abortion should be carried out and it is the woman herself - it's her future life is all about. We men can simply walk away.
 
There's something like condoms and the likes, Kesse.
IMHO: if you're mature enough to have sex, then certainly you are old enough to face any consequence.
As for financial reasons: adoption could be a solution.
Men walking away?
Nuter them with a hammer, no anesthesia.
A tad extreme, granted, but right now 13 year olds get pregnant, do an abortion, and go screw the next guy.
What do we teach them?
Food for thought....

Combat situation:
Yes, I have been in combat situations, in Africa.
I've been threatened by a kid running up to us, a grenade in his hand.
I stopped him, the fast way.
Am I proud of that?
Hell no.
Does it bother me?
Hell yes, up to this day in age.
Each night I wake up seeing these movies play off in my head.
Would I do that again?
Hell yes I would.
We were tasked to eradicate warlords in Africa, destroy weapon caches, drug caches,...
I've been shot at, thrown grenades at, I've been through quite a bit.
Lost 3 good friends there.
Somehow, I got bloody lucky.
Until I went abseiling...

So I think I can say, that I've seen a bit of battle, yes.
 
Kesse, I think we Scandinavians have the same perception about women rights to decide about their own lives. There are too many children living in hellish situations and when children have children......Adoptions may work in some cases. Although, I think it's much better to leave the decisions to the people involved, isn't that the democratic way or shall we decide how others shall live their lives.

I through out a question here. When the majority of the armed conflicts in the post WWII word have been asymmetric and during those conflicts the insurgents, guerrilla or whatever we want to call them have been successful in their strategical goals. Do you have an answer how to change it? Are we requiring too much of our military? How can we change their societies when they (insurgents) are not interested to change it?

It turned out to be more questions...
 
There's something like condoms and the likes, Kesse.
IMHO: if you're mature enough to have sex, then certainly you are old enough to face any consequence.
As for financial reasons: adoption could be a solution.
Men walking away?
Nuter them with a hammer, no anesthesia.
A tad extreme, granted, but right now 13 year olds get pregnant, do an abortion, and go screw the next guy.
What do we teach them?
Food for thought....
I've heard all these arguments about abortion before and I don´t give a damn.
It´s the woman's choice and no one else - end of story.

Combat situation:
Yes, I have been in combat situations, in Africa.
I've been threatened by a kid running up to us, a grenade in his hand.
I stopped him, the fast way.
Am I proud of that?
Hell no.
Does it bother me?
Hell yes, up to this day in age.
Each night I wake up seeing these movies play off in my head.
Would I do that again?
Hell yes I would.
We were tasked to eradicate warlords in Africa, destroy weapon caches, drug caches,...
I've been shot at, thrown grenades at, I've been through quite a bit.
Lost 3 good friends there.
Somehow, I got bloody lucky.
Until I went abseiling...

So I think I can say, that I've seen a bit of battle, yes.
So you've been in combat - congratulations - so have several of us.
Have you learned something?
 
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Kesse, I think we Scandinavians have the same perception about women rights to decide about their own lives. There are too many children living in hellish situations and when children have children......Adoptions may work in some cases. Although, I think it's much better to leave the decisions to the people involved, isn't that the democratic way or shall we decide how others shall live their lives.

No we should not determine how others should live their lives and you´re right, it´s about freedom.
It's about a woman´s freedom to decide for herself what to do with her own body.


And nobody should be preaching their own morals to a woman who already is in a miserable situation and therefore also may be vulnerable.

It can never be fully democratic. It´s the woman´s body - her call.


I through out a question here. When the majority of the armed conflicts in the post WWII word have been asymmetric and during those conflicts the insurgents, guerrilla or whatever we want to call them have been successful in their strategical goals. Do you have an answer how to change it? Are we requiring too much of our military? How can we change their societies when they (insurgents) are not interested to change it?

It turned out to be more questions...

Look at the world history, how´s it gone?
We can´t militarily combat this problem. We can militarily keep it down, but it costs and we can´t afford it in the long run.


Information, education and a better standard of living is the answer. We should turn a foe to a friend.

If you win the trust of the population you´ll remove the raison d'être of a insurrectionary movement.

Easier said than done, but we must start somewhere.
 
In asymmetric warfare, the people are the terrain. Most people want to be left alone and simply live their lives. When insurgency or war comes to their doorstep, they have to make a decision..."do we support the insurgents, who likely will be living among us and can take action against me, my family, my village, my community? Or do I support the "coalition, invaders, self proclaimed good guys, or whatever you want to call them", who may or may not be here when the reckoning comes from the insurgents who are going to enact revenge for any cooperation percieved or otherwise?"

Killing the problem reinforces the insurgency. Security is the name of the game. Live in the villages and neighborhoods of the areas you are trying to protect while arming and teaching the locals to defend themselves and at the same time build local relationships that make us and them appear more human. Killing a human is much harder than killing a target or "bad guy". We must display restraint towards the locals which is going to show them who is REALLY on their side, so that when we leave they can and will take care of themselves. Once they have the tools to do so, people are much better at policing their own areas than I, you, or we ever could.

Having the sword be the only solution just means that it will cut both ways.
 
Or is it better to react to problems when they emerge and leave them alone between the conflicts? I am speculating, how the build societies is not a job for the military. The military can be used as the FD, use the resources when it's called for. I think we as a society need to find something else, because what we are doing is not working. As what Kesse said, we cannot afford it any longer. Historically, the major change in Europe and North America occurred during the industrial revolution and the social revolution which occurred more or less at the same time. The democratic states evolved during this process and it occurred from within. The American war of independence had an enormous impact on the European societies. The difference back then and now is, the US never forced it on Europe. The Europeans wanted it and they got it. Shall we use a similar approach?
 
I understand that many want to use a humane approach to the Middle East conflict, but " hearts and minds" will not work in this situation for the reason that the people in that region know that no matter what the Westerners do for them or say to them, in the end the Westerners will go home and then they will have to deal with the former insurgents.
They cannot have any longterm protection from those cutthroats so they aren't listening, They aren't buying it, even if their dislike of Westerners for cultural, historic, linguistic and religious differences could be overcome, ( and they can't).
So the only solution is to kill ( or attrit - a Pentagon term) the insurgents. meaning in plain language, kill the insurgents. Air power is an ideal tool for this purpose if it is used with, shall we say, robust rules of engagement. There are no imbedded reporters in the cockpit so you can show the media what you want to show them. Show them the video of the obviously armed insurgent band being obliterated. Don't show them the video of the cluster bomb unit that went astray and took out the orphanage (oops). A veteran U.S. Army officer of the Moro War said many years later that coddling the Moro insurgents worked sometimes, but on balance, he wishes he had killed more of them.
 
I understand that many want to use a humane approach to the Middle East conflict, but " hearts and minds" will not work in this situation for the reason that the people in that region know that no matter what the Westerners do for them or say to them, in the end the Westerners will go home and then they will have to deal with the former insurgents.
They cannot have any longterm protection from those cutthroats so they aren't listening, They aren't buying it, even if their dislike of Westerners for cultural, historic, linguistic and religious differences could be overcome, ( and they can't).
So the only solution is to kill ( or attrit - a Pentagon term) the insurgents. meaning in plain language, kill the insurgents. Air power is an ideal tool for this purpose if it is used with, shall we say, robust rules of engagement. There are no imbedded reporters in the cockpit so you can show the media what you want to show them. Show them the video of the obviously armed insurgent band being obliterated. Don't show them the video of the cluster bomb unit that went astray and took out the orphanage (oops). A veteran U.S. Army officer of the Moro War said many years later that coddling the Moro insurgents worked sometimes, but on balance, he wishes he had killed more of them.


The policy during Vietnam was to win in a war of attrition....kill them until they quit. Well, that is almost impossible when they control the initiation of over 90% of all major combat engagements. Which, in essence, means they controlled the casualties on both sides to where they could sustain them indefinitely while we continued to look at our watches impatiently.

The Marines had a program for the first few years of the war that was called the combined action platoon program. Or "CAP". Essentially, a squad lived in a village with the people and helped train civil irregular defense corps (CIDG), IE locals, in patrolling, ambushing, weapons proficiency etc. When the program was scrapped by Westmorland because he wanted more maneuver battalions looking for the "big fights", over 90% of all the villages that were friendly to the Republic of Vietnam in I corps had CAP platoons in them.

Also, we were trying to attrit them in Iraq in Al Anbar province up until the Sunni Awakening. The only reason the most dangerous place in the world(at the time) turned around was because we switched our tactics to focus much more on counter insurgency and "terrain denial" (access to the people) while at the same time working closely with the desert sheiks, training their militias,and allowing them to become police in their own neighborhoods. It can work and create a lasting solution if we would be willing to assume a little risk (we as in the military) and we are givin the freedom and timeline to facilitate it. It wouldn't take a ton of forces and would be a helluva lot cheaper than invading a country every 10 years. Just some food for thought.

As the Afghans like to say "you have all the watches....we have all the time".
 
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I've heard all these arguments about abortion before and I don´t give a damn.
It´s the woman's choice and no one else - end of story.
I respect your opinion.
But what will our children for one learn of this?
Life has no value, and we can do whatever we want, we can fix things anyway.
You DO know that these children are our future, right?

I've heard all these arguments about abortion before and I don´t give a damn.
It´s the woman's choice and no one else - end of story.

So you've been in combat - congratulations - so have several of us.
Have you learned something?
Well, I did yes: run away from grenades, and point the end of your weapon to the target.
Both helped me out quite a bit. *grins* ;)

Look at the world history, how´s it gone?
We can´t militarily combat this problem. We can militarily keep it down, but it costs and we can´t afford it in the long run.


Information, education and a better standard of living is the answer. We should turn a foe to a friend.
You forgot a very important fact here: we are HUMAN.
Many will choose NOT to learn, NOT to cooperate, NOT to be civil.

Our ways of dealing with the problems is the problem.
We make micro-attacks over a very long time, instead of going for a mass-cleaning up.
One massive assault I think could turn the tide.
Also expensive, but far less compared to what we do right now.

In asymmetric warfare, the people are the terrain. Most people want to be left alone and simply live their lives. When insurgency or war comes to their doorstep, they have to make a decision..."do we support the insurgents, who likely will be living among us and can take action against me, my family, my village, my community? Or do I support the "coalition, invaders, self proclaimed good guys, or whatever you want to call them", who may or may not be here when the reckoning comes from the insurgents who are going to enact revenge for any cooperation percieved or otherwise?"

Killing the problem reinforces the insurgency. Security is the name of the game. Live in the villages and neighborhoods of the areas you are trying to protect while arming and teaching the locals to defend themselves and at the same time build local relationships that make us and them appear more human. Killing a human is much harder than killing a target or "bad guy". We must display restraint towards the locals which is going to show them who is REALLY on their side, so that when we leave they can and will take care of themselves. Once they have the tools to do so, people are much better at policing their own areas than I, you, or we ever could.
Question: weaponizing and militarizing civilians: do you actually believe that this is the solution?
Look at Iraq: it isn't going well there is it?
IMHO: civilians shouldn't be turned into military/police forces.
That would result in an even higher bodycount on the civilian side.
Thoughts?

As what Kesse said, we cannot afford it any longer.
I understand, but again, it's the way that we try to deal with this, that makes us poor.
AND: the enemy was counting on this.
It's a weakness, this cost.
It'll go far worse, if we do not act.
Mark my words...


I understand that many want to use a humane approach to the Middle East conflict, but " hearts and minds" will not work in this situation for the reason that the people in that region know that no matter what the Westerners do for them or say to them, in the end the Westerners will go home and then they will have to deal with the former insurgents.
They cannot have any longterm protection from those cutthroats so they aren't listening, They aren't buying it, even if their dislike of Westerners for cultural, historic, linguistic and religious differences could be overcome, ( and they can't).
So the only solution is to kill ( or attrit - a Pentagon term) the insurgents. meaning in plain language, kill the insurgents. Air power is an ideal tool for this purpose if it is used with, shall we say, robust rules of engagement. There are no imbedded reporters in the cockpit so you can show the media what you want to show them. Show them the video of the obviously armed insurgent band being obliterated. Don't show them the video of the cluster bomb unit that went astray and took out the orphanage (oops). A veteran U.S. Army officer of the Moro War said many years later that coddling the Moro insurgents worked sometimes, but on balance, he wishes he had killed more of them.
Aye.
And humans will always find a way to make conflict.
If it isn't about resources, land or religion, it will be because of clothing colours, or wearing glasses or not.
We consider ourselves so smart, how then haven't we learned in 300K years how to live in balance with nature or in coexistence with one another and ourselves?

As the Afghans like to say "you have all the watches....we have all the time".
This was what I am referring to.
Our micro-attacks do no damage, no real damage.
And they prey on this factor, they KNOW, and use that against us.
Which in turn made me think that our approach of the problem in heavily problematic...


On a side note:
I do not intend to anger anyone, I am stating thoughts, with a 2-way idea: to make people think, and to gain insights.
I have learned interesting things in this thread, and I truly hope this thread will continue onwards.
Thank you all.
 
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I've heard all these arguments about abortion before and I don´t give a damn.
It´s the woman's choice and no one else - end of story.

No we should not determine how others should live their lives and you´re right, it´s about freedom.
It's about a woman´s freedom to decide for herself what to do with her own body.

The man and woman have responsibility in this. Are they not consenting individuals, can they not use protection. In the US there are more people wanting to adopt than their are abortions. Due to the # of abortions they often have to adopt children from overseas. Of course their are special cases rape and so on. What about the potential for the unborn baby. Besides what has this to do with fighting the enemy?
 
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So what shall we do? We can militarily intervene in countries and more or less stay there forever. The price for it is very high, not only the economic even the human price will be high.

The Middle East has another vital thing which is significant for the world. The oil and it influence the our behavior toward the region. So with ISIS now, shall we put out the fire and let them be until the next time? The nation building in Syria and Iraq is their problem not ours. I am a believer of the change of a society must come from inside and not outside. The grievances in these countries must be solved by the people residing there
 
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