Fiercest Battle in History - Page 34




 
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June 1st, 2014  
JOC
 
 

Topic: Histories Murderers?


~ 6 million Jewish people were murdered by the Nazis which is well publicized. Incredible amounts of Slavs were killed, starved to death or died as slaves as well. In the USSR the real figure may never be known. It certainly was at least 15 million, likely considerable higher. > 2000 towns and villages were but to the torch usually with the people locked inside of large buildings that were set on fire. The SS - police units waited outside with machine guns in case anyone one got out. They filled pits and it wasn’t always Jews who were marched into the pits and shot. There were dozens of these pits found primarily in the USSR, the largest Babi Yar which when uncover by the Soviets was found to contain > 130 thousand bodies. Millions had all their food stocks appropriated to the Reich, leaving them to stave in the Russian winter. It’s estimated as many as 11 - 12 million Soviet citizens were murdered outsight. Add to that 3.4- 3.5 million Soviet POW's that died at the hands of the Nazis. ~ 1 million Gypsies. In Poland at least 3 million non-Jewish people were killed: used as slaves, murdered, starved, etc. In many countries such as Greece > 500 hundred thousand died simple because the Nazis appropriated their food leaving them to starve. Nearly every occupied country in Europe was forced to supply slaves to work in the Greater Reich. The survival rate for the forced labor force was very low. Even the western occupied nations i.e. Italy, the Netherlands and France suffered atrocities, mass executions, etc. In total of those killed “directly or indirectly” may never be known, but easily exceeds 25 million. This does not include those killed in by shelling and bombing. My point with all this is the Nazi Germany murdered – killed more innocent people quicker than any other country - group in History. Greater than 99 % of these murders and deaths occurred in ~ 5.5 years. A chilling legacy. We can be fortunate that US and USSR prevented a Nazi victory.

The Congo, the Mongols, Stalin, Mao all killed 10’s of millions but over a much longer period of time.

However it’s hard to rate this kind of thing seeing as you go back in time groups that committed mass atrocities like the Mongols, Chinese, Romans, Assyrians to name but a few did so on horseback or foot when the population of world was much lower.

Of these I believe the Mongols killed more innocents than any other in group in the ancient world >20 million, perhaps as many as 40 million as Brinktk stated. This was over a considerably longer period of time. I don’t know how many of these people died fighting the Mongols and how many were simply murdered. If I recall the Mongols would sometimes allow a city to surrender unconditionally, thus sparing the inhabitants. However at the least sigh of resistance they generally massacred the inhabitants. Prior to the European conflict of WW2, the Mongols raids and conquest were considered to be the most devastating event in history.
June 2nd, 2014  
elmosquito
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JOC
~ 6 million Jewish people were murdered by the Nazis which is well publicized. Incredible amounts of Slavs were killed, starved to death or died as slaves as well. In the USSR the real figure may never be known. It certainly was at least 15 million, likely considerable higher. > 2000 towns and villages were but to the torch usually with the people locked inside of large buildings that were set on fire. The SS - police units waited outside with machine guns in case anyone one got out. They filled pits and it wasn’t always Jews who were marched into the pits and shot. There were dozens of these pits found primarily in the USSR, the largest Babi Yar which when uncover by the Soviets was found to contain > 130 thousand bodies. Millions had all their food stocks appropriated to the Reich, leaving them to stave in the Russian winter. It’s estimated as many as 11 - 12 million Soviet citizens were murdered outsight. Add to that 3.4- 3.5 million Soviet POW's that died at the hands of the Nazis. ~ 1 million Gypsies. In Poland at least 3 million non-Jewish people were killed: used as slaves, murdered, starved, etc. In many countries such as Greece > 500 hundred thousand died simple because the Nazis appropriated their food leaving them to starve. Nearly every occupied country in Europe was forced to supply slaves to work in the Greater Reich. The survival rate for the forced labor force was very low. Even the western occupied nations i.e. Italy, the Netherlands and France suffered atrocities, mass executions, etc. In total of those killed “directly or indirectly” may never be known, but easily exceeds 25 million. This does not include those killed in by shelling and bombing. My point with all this is the Nazi Germany murdered – killed more innocent people quicker than any other country - group in History. Greater than 99 % of these murders and deaths occurred in ~ 5.5 years. A chilling legacy. We can be fortunate that US and USSR prevented a Nazi victory.

The Congo, the Mongols, Stalin, Mao all killed 10’s of millions but over a much longer period of time.

However it’s hard to rate this kind of thing seeing as you go back in time groups that committed mass atrocities like the Mongols, Chinese, Romans, Assyrians to name but a few did so on horseback or foot when the population of world was much lower.

Of these I believe the Mongols killed more innocents than any other in group in the ancient world >20 million, perhaps as many as 40 million as Brinktk stated. This was over a considerably longer period of time. I don’t know how many of these people died fighting the Mongols and how many were simply murdered. If I recall the Mongols would sometimes allow a city to surrender unconditionally, thus sparing the inhabitants. However at the least sigh of resistance they generally massacred the inhabitants. Prior to the European conflict of WW2, the Mongols raids and conquest were considered to be the most devastating event in history.
the mongol conquests spanned for almost a hundred years and its possible that many deaths attributed to the mongols were actually caused by epidemics, famine, natural catastrophe and even migration. this is not to say that the mongols weren't that brutal. they were known to divert rivers to wipe out cities, in iran, they wiped out three-fourths of the population. they built pyramids out of dead bodies.Consider also that most of these deaths were slaughter of defenseless civilians.

in the eastern front, a good fraction of deaths were military deaths due to the battles itself which were a give and take affair by most accounts.
In Operation Barbarossa, russian military casualties (dead, wounded and POWs) was about 2.5 to 3 million, On the German side, around 750 thousand to a million. Incomprehensible numbers reached in a span of around eight months
June 2nd, 2014  
JOC
 
 

Topic: Soviet WW2 deaths


Yes the military deaths for the USSR were exceptionally high, including POW's ~ 11 million Soviet military personal died.

However at least 16 million, perhaps as high as 20 million civilians died, the majority were shot, burned, died by engineered starvation, died as forced labors, etc. A few million died as a result of bombing and shelling, i.e. 40 thousand died when Stalingrad was bombed. Often Stalin didn't allow citizen of the cities to evacuate concerned that the refugees would block the through fairs and cause panic.

The Nazi's considered the Soviet peoples to be sub-human Slavs and treated the Soviet peoples deplorably. Himmler stated that if 5000 Russian women died digging a tank trap that saved the life of a single German soldier they had served their purpose. Manstein is quoted to have said any food stocks allow to the locals that were not in service to the Wehrmacht are wasted.

For a long time the magnitude of the Soviet losses was understated so as not to lose face.
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November 5th, 2014  
tetvet
 
Stalin wiped out 80% of his military officers prior to WWII because he was given information that these officers were plotting to overthrow him it turns out the information unknowing to him was supplied by the Germans .
March 1st, 2015  
joegoodbye
 
perhaps operation goodwood...normandy,where brits and canadians took on 6 panzer divisions on a fifty mile front,the greatest concentration of german armour in the whole war,the brits lost over 300 tanks
March 1st, 2015  
Queensman
 
 

Topic: Fiercest Battle in History


War of the roses and the Battle of Towton in 1461.
In one days battle in terrible weather, 28,000 died.
Add the wounded who died over the next few days and the figure could be significantly higher.
The bloodiest and fiercest battle ever in England

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Towton
March 1st, 2015  
JOC
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by joegoodbye
perhaps operation goodwood...normandy,where brits and canadians took on 6 panzer divisions on a fifty mile front,the greatest concentration of german armour in the whole war,the brits lost over 300 tanks
It was 2nd to Kursk in the amount armor lost by both sides.

However you are right the battles in and around the Caen area saw the most concentrated armor warfare on the western front. British and Canadian losses were atrocious. I believe they lost well over a thousand AFV's alone before it was over, "including the battles north of Caen". Britain basically took on most of the Germans heavy armor that was in France at that time and in doing so allowed the Americans to breakthrough to the east. This caught the Germans in the Falaise Pocket . Now it became the Germans turn to lose thousands of AFV's and vehicles.
March 1st, 2015  
JOC
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Queensman
War of the roses and the Battle of Towton in 1461.
In one days battle in terrible weather, 28,000 died.
Add the wounded who died over the next few days and the figure could be significantly higher.
The bloodiest and fiercest battle ever in England

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Towton
I don't know about single day losses. No war can compare to the losses suffered in less than 4 years of fighting on the Eastern front of WW2. Soviet military losses were (10.6 and 12+) million (~ 3.5 million of these were POW who died at the hands of the Nazi's). German military losses on were > 3.5 million (~ 1 million of these were POW's who died at the Soviets hands). At > 1/2 million German allies died as well. It's difficult to but an exact number but the total number of military deaths on the Eastern front in WW2 ranges from ~ (14.6 to 17 million). Some modern Soviet historians believe Soviet losses were higher. This leaves us with a bone chilling average of ~ 11,000 men/day dead on the Eastern front of WW2.
March 1st, 2015  
Queensman
 
 

Topic: Fiercest Battle in History


Quote:
Originally Posted by JOC
I don't know about single day losses. No war can compare to the losses suffered in less than 4 years of fighting on the Eastern front of WW2. Soviet military losses were (10.6 and 12+) million (~ 3.5 million of these were POW who died at the hands of the Nazi's). German military losses on were > 3.5 million (~ 1 million of these were POW's who died at the Soviets hands). At > 1/2 million German allies died as well. It's difficult to but an exact number but the total number of military deaths on the Eastern front in WW2 ranges from ~ (14.6 to 17 million). Some modern Soviet historians believe Soviet losses were higher. This leaves us with a bone chilling average of ~ 11,000 men/day dead on the Eastern front of WW2.

Very true but I reckon 28,000 soldiers dying by sword, axe, lance and many different types of blunt instrument would count among one of the fiercest battles ever.
Bear in mind that the actual fighting took place over a maximum ten hour period and was more likely to be 5-8 hours of battle.
That's 3,500 killed an hour in hand to hand combat, but quite a few were killed by arrows because one side used the strong wind to there advantage.
March 1st, 2015  
JOC
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Queensman
Very true but I reckon 28,000 soldiers dying by sword, axe, lance and many different types of blunt instrument would count among one of the fiercest battles ever.
Bear in mind that the actual fighting took place over a maximum ten hour period and was more likely to be 5-8 hours of battle.
That's 3,500 killed an hour in hand to hand combat, but quite a few were killed by arrows because one side used the strong wind to there advantage.
Those ancient battles had to unbelievable brutal. Image swinging a sword or battle axe for a couple of hours straight. The battle couldn't possible last but for a short while. To even go 5 hours they must been exhausted to no end. Many of the ancient battles were over in a matter of hours as you point out. You can only fight like that for so long. I'm surprised they could even go on for that long considering the stamina needed.