Originally Posted by MontyB

The problem with that notion is that both the Russians and Germans built tanks during that time so the comparitive strengths remained the same, time in my opinion was not decisive either.

What you have to ask yourself with Kursk (and any battle you think is decisive) is what was the best case scenario for both sides had the battle gone either way.
Would a Russian defeat at Kursk changed the outcome of the war in the east?
In my opinion it would at best have given the Third Reich another 6 months and a complete German failure would have changed little.

In my opinion, yes it would have changed the eastern front because then the Russians have lost a major city, especially after the Third Battle of Kharkov. Manstein’s forces would have supported and crushed Kursk and even Georgy Zhukov, Konstantin Rokossovsky, Nikolai Vatutin, and Ivan Konev can’t stop Günther von Kluge, Hermann Hoth, Werner Kempf, and Walter Model.

Air Vice Marshal Keith Parks Air Officer commanding 11 Group during the Battle of Britain fought the battle as it should have been despite being stabbed in the back once the battle was won, along with Air Officer Commanding Fighter Command Hugh Dowding by Douglas Bader and Air Officer Commanding 12 group Leigh-Mallory.

Keith Parks became AOC (Air Officer Commanding) of RAF LUQA in Malta, his skill and determination ensured Malta managed to fight through attacks by Axis forces to its conclusion.

Leigh Mallory because of his arrogance managed to get he, his wife and the crew of a York transport aircraft killed.:-

On 16 August 1944, with the Battle of Normandy almost over, Leigh-Mallory was appointed Air Commander-in-Chief of South East Asia Command (SEAC) with the temporary rank of air chief marshal. But before he could take up his post, on 14 November, he and his wife were killed en route to Burma when their Avro York MW126,flown by Squadron Leader Charles Gordon Drake Lancaster DFC and Bar, crashed in the French Alps, killing all on board. A court of inquiry found that the accident was a consequence of bad weather and might have been avoided if Leigh-Mallory had not insisted that the flight proceed in such poor conditions against the advice of his aircrew. His replacement at SEAC was his Battle of Britain rival Air Marshal Sir Keith Park. I call that Karma

Originally Posted by MarshalManstein1

In my opinion, yes it would have changed the eastern front because then the Russians have lost a major city, especially after the Third Battle of Kharkov. Manstein’s forces would have supported and crushed Kursk and even Georgy Zhukov, Konstantin Rokossovsky, Nikolai Vatutin, and Ivan Konev can’t stop Günther von Kluge, Hermann Hoth, Werner Kempf, and Walter Model.

Hi, MarshalManstien1, Nice meet you here and I am glad you are here. Please check out our discussions about the Second World War and jump in if you find something interesting and feel free to create your own threads about the matter.

I agree with Monty about Kursk, even if the Germans had been successful, I doubt they had the resources to gain the initiative on the eastern front. The Germans had lost a huge amount of troops and vehicles even if they had won the battle. I have said it another thread (I don't remember which right now) the Germans were on a slippery sloop toward the defeat even before Kursk. There were many factors influencing the final outcome. The Russian mud, the Russian winter, the Russians were too many, the lend lease, the US and Commonwealth activities, the German inability to do anything about the Russian war production while their own production had the attention of the RAF and the USAAF. The intelligence worked for the Ruskies as well. All these things combined prevented the Germans to gain the initiative on the eastern front and the commanders on the German side couldn't do anything about it. Manstien implemented a really good defense in the south prior Kursk and that makes him a talented German commander. However, to rely on what Generals and other commanders were/are writing can provide with a biased perception of the events.

Originally Posted by BritinAfrica

Air Vice Marshal Keith Parks Air Officer commanding 11 Group during the Battle of Britain fought the battle as it should have been despite being stabbed in the back once the battle was won, along with Air Officer Commanding Fighter Command Hugh Dowding by Douglas Bader and Air Officer Commanding 12 group Leigh-Mallory.

Keith Parks became AOC (Air Officer Commanding) of RAF LUQA in Malta, his skill and determination ensured Malta managed to fight through attacks by Axis forces to its conclusion.

Leigh Mallory because of his arrogance managed to get he, his wife and the crew of a York transport aircraft killed.:-

On 16 August 1944, with the Battle of Normandy almost over, Leigh-Mallory was appointed Air Commander-in-Chief of South East Asia Command (SEAC) with the temporary rank of air chief marshal. But before he could take up his post, on 14 November, he and his wife were killed en route to Burma when their Avro York MW126,flown by Squadron Leader Charles Gordon Drake Lancaster DFC and Bar, crashed in the French Alps, killing all on board. A court of inquiry found that the accident was a consequence of bad weather and might have been avoided if Leigh-Mallory had not insisted that the flight proceed in such poor conditions against the advice of his aircrew. His replacement at SEAC was his Battle of Britain rival Air Marshal Sir Keith Park. I call that Karma

The sad thing is that Park is not as well known in New Zealand as he should be, we focus on Feyburg and Upham and little else.

Originally Posted by MontyB

The sad thing is that Park is not as well known in New Zealand as he should be, we focus on Feyburg and Upham and little else.

Thats sad Monty, Keith Parks in my mind is the stuff heroes are made out of, he and Hugh Dowding saved Britain during the battle and later on Keith Parks, saved Malta.

Having said that, Frank Whittle got more recognition in the USA then he did in Britain.

Originally Posted by I3BrigPvSk

Hi, MarshalManstien1, Nice meet you here and I am glad you are here. Please check out our discussions about the Second World War and jump in if you find something interesting and feel free to create your own threads about the matter.

I agree with Monty about Kursk, even if the Germans had been successful, I doubt they had the resources to gain the initiative on the eastern front. The Germans had lost a huge amount of troops and vehicles even if they had won the battle. I have said it another thread (I don't remember which right now) the Germans were on a slippery sloop toward the defeat even before Kursk. There were many factors influencing the final outcome. The Russian mud, the Russian winter, the Russians were too many, the lend lease, the US and Commonwealth activities, the German inability to do anything about the Russian war production while their own production had the attention of the RAF and the USAAF. The intelligence worked for the Ruskies as well. All these things combined prevented the Germans to gain the initiative on the eastern front and the commanders on the German side couldn't do anything about it. Manstien implemented a really good defense in the south prior Kursk and that makes him a talented German commander. However, to rely on what Generals and other commanders were/are writing can provide with a biased perception of the events.

Hello Viking (finally someone else), Let me direct your attention towards Manstein’s skill, and if he would have won Kursk and held it if all troops were equal. I believe yes, Manstein would have won not because I am biased, it because he has more military experience than anyone else. Also, intelligence isn’t always the best, as we know the enigma failed. Finally, if the japs weren’t idiots to attack the US, and if Hitler sent more troops to North Africa, then Hitler would have most of his troops at the USSR and all failures irl wouldn’t happen. I salute your opinion though. It is a privilege.

Maj Gen Sir Leslie Morshead, (GOC, 9th Australian Division) the FIRST General to giver Rommel a hiding, at Tobruk, in WW2.

He repeated the lesson at the 2nd Battle of el Alamein.

Rommel's comment later, "The finest Infantry Division I ever faced".

OC

Originally Posted by oz codger

Maj Gen Sir Leslie Morshead, (GOC, 9th Australian Division) the FIRST General to giver Rommel a hiding, at Tobruk, in WW2.

He repeated the lesson at the 2nd Battle of el Alamein.

Rommel's comment later, "The finest Infantry Division I ever faced".

OC

I have often wondered how Morshead would have done on Crete instead of Freyburg.

Originally Posted by MarshalManstein1

Hello Viking (finally someone else), Let me direct your attention towards Manstein’s skill, and if he would have won Kursk and held it if all troops were equal. I believe yes, Manstein would have won not because I am biased, it because he has more military experience than anyone else. Also, intelligence isn’t always the best, as we know the enigma failed. Finally, if the japs weren’t idiots to attack the US, and if Hitler sent more troops to North Africa, then Hitler would have most of his troops at the USSR and all failures irl wouldn’t happen. I salute your opinion though. It is a privilege.

There are a couple of threads in the WW2 section that cover both Kursk and Manstein where this level of discussion is more suited as it covers areas I would like to continue.

Originally Posted by MarshalManstein1

Hello Viking (finally someone else), Let me direct your attention towards Manstein’s skill, and if he would have won Kursk and held it if all troops were equal. I believe yes, Manstein would have won not because I am biased, it because he has more military experience than anyone else. Also, intelligence isn’t always the best, as we know the enigma failed. Finally, if the japs weren’t idiots to attack the US, and if Hitler sent more troops to North Africa, then Hitler would have most of his troops at the USSR and all failures irl wouldn’t happen. I salute your opinion though. It is a privilege.

I think we can move this discussion to the World Wars Section so we don't delude this thread. There is a thread created by George about Kursk, we can continue there if you like. Manstein was an experienced commander, no doubt about that. However, I doubt he had any chance to be successful at Kursk. The Germans didn't have the logistical strength to launch an all out offensive toward Moscow or any other strategical targets in Soviet Union at the time.