Fatal flaw of the F-22?

Lunatik

Active member
A recent hot media story featured a "secret simulation exercise" alleged to show that the F-35 was inferior to the Russian Su-27 (as used by the Chinese). That turned out to be a matter of misinterpretation, but there was another analysis that showed the F-22 being smoked by the Su-27. Fortunately, all the particulars for this one were promptly released, thus deflating any attempts at headline grabbing.

That scenario postulated that three regiments of Chinese Su-27s (72 aircraft) went up against six F-22s (hastily flown to Taiwan to stem a hypothetical Chinese onslaught.) Even though the Su-27s were carrying about 900 air-to-air missiles (and the F-22s only 48), the American fighters manage to survive the air battle, and take down over twenty Su-27s. But some of the Su-27s get past them and go after the aerial tankers. That's critical because the F-22s burn most of their fuel fighting off the Su-27s, and are lost at sea without the tankers.​

It's all about fuel management. As a rule of thumb, a fighter can take its total flying range and divide it into thirds: one third for going out ("operating radius"), one third for coming back and one third for combat. A typical modern fighter can cruise at 900 kilometers per hour. The F-22 can cruise faster than that, and has a theoretical flying time of three hours. However, high-performance fighters obtain their speed by having an engine that can increase its fuel consumption enormously for short periods. For example, at cruise speed, fighters burns .5-.6 percent of its fuel per minute. By kicking in the afterburner, cruise speed can be more than tripled, and fuel consumption increased more than twenty times. At full "war power" an F 22 can burn 30 percent of its fuel in a few minutes. It can also escape from unfavorable situations using a sudden increase in speed. A less experienced pilot will abuse the high performance of his aircraft to get him out of one tight situation after another. Once a fighter reaches BINGO fuel (just enough to get home), combat must cease. Otherwise the aircraft will likely run out of fuel before reaching its base, and be just as useless as if shot down by the enemy. It's a common tactic to try and force the other guy into more high fuel consumption maneuvers. Eventually he will run low on fuel and try to break away. At this point he becomes desperate and vulnerable.​

The F-22 uses its speed advantages to avoid getting hit, and to get into a position to knock down opponents. The fuel is like ammo, when it's gone, you are in trouble. And if your aerial tankers are not there, you either find a place to land, or bail out.​

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the F-22 like anyother platform, dose not fight alone. It will be supported by ariel tankers, AWACs and other elements that the US currently has major advantages. I very much doubt the SU-27, while a good desighn, can beat the F-22 at ariel combat. If you pitch 6 planes against 70, your loosing a fight before you started it. Americans know how to manage ariel combat so that they have the upper hand, and they prooved it many times.
 
F-22 Flaws

I saw that article as well but realize quickly if we were going to help we be sending a lot more then 6 fighters. Unless its a sneak attack the US would move fighters into the region before hand.

Sadly Taiwan would be a lost cause anyway currently if China wanted to go hell bent all out. There is just too much pointed at Taiwan and China could use the B aircraft early on and hold back their A aircraft to outlast Taiwan's AF. The missile hits on the air bases and known reserves would hurt too much to come back from. Taiwan's air defenses are good don't get me wrong and China's stuff isn't the greatest but there just isn't enough to hold off a hell bent attack for any period of time. We wouldn't put a carrier or even two in between that kind of fighting. I'm sure there's a thread for this sorry for going off topic.

The picture I put up with the F-22 with the two drop tanks I wonder if the mounts holding the tank drop off cleanly and the F-22 can go into full stealth mode? This would help save a little of the internal fuel in route at least.
 
Yes, 70 vs 6 may not be a very realistic scenario, but it's definitely a fatal one. :smil:

I think the only viable solution for Taiwan to deter a hell bent Chinese attack would be to go beyond conventional and have strategic missiles, namely MRBMs with borrowed nuclear warheads from NATO. Let the Chinese know that a full-scale invasion of Taiwan will mean Beijing and Shanghai go bye bye.
 
LOL, I know, but they gave them to Turkey, to Germany, to Greece and to Italy too. The difference, of course, is that they're all full NATO members. But I'm just saying. If having an independent stronghold and a solid base of operations right to the south of China is important to the West/NATO, it also has to be defended, effectively. Sure, giving nukes to Taiwan would piss off a lot of people around the Tiananmen Square, but I doubt it'd directly lead to a WW3. :smil:
 
China

Isn't China our largest trading partner wouldn't it piss them off? It's not like there putting nukes in Cuba? Putting nuke on any of the shared 14 borders China has would piss them off, really 13 India already has them.

China has a fair share S-300's on the coast too plus some copy of the S-300 already in production. They could do more dishing out then taking while Taiwan's military assets and more get pounded.

If we knew in advance yes the US could move enough forces and so on to make them think twice about carrying out such a venture. I don't think we would get that option of knowing really if something were to happen it would happen quickly most likely on the back end of some normal training China military runs. So much of our resources are in the Middle East and other regions that it would be difficult to respond. Then it opens another can of worms would Japan, South Korea, and others allow the US to operate from their base at that time.

Think about it if Taiwan was pounded to shxt for two days would it be worth it to Japan and say South Korea to allow our fighters and bombers to launch against China at that point? On paper they would but if it's a loss cause already meaning Taiwan's stop fighting it could go either way. China the big boy on the block over there and it's in their back yard.
 
The above picture would have been complete with an F-86 and an F-4 thrown in.
By the way, having six aircraft fight and generally win against seventy is not a flaw by any stretch of the imagination.
 
Six in a fight

I totally agree 100% can you imagine 80 F-22’s moved into position? It goes to show that 5th generation is the way to go and it’s going to get better with Block II F-22 model as well.

The weapons will also grow as well into another whole area bring the fight from much further distances and in stealth form as well.

Take it yet a step further imagine stealth armed UAV’s out in front of those F-22s as shooters?

 
Ah, here you go. Couldn't find the F-86 but the F-4's in here. :)

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And with F-117 and F-5...

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And also with the F-15...

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They're all from an Nellis AFB air show, 06.
 
Excuse me guys, but I dont understand one thing... How can 6 F-22 survive a battle against 70 Su-27?

are the Chinese completely retarded? they dont have skilled pilots?

or is it the Russians who have two left hands and cant make a decent aircraft?

I just cant imagine how they can survive against 70 interceptors... I can understand that they can take out 20 of their foes by engaging them with long range missile... BVR engagement can do that if they have superior ECM + superior counter measures... but once the enemy will reach them... I dont see how they could survive or dodge so many missiles...

Am I the only one here to question that?

feels like reading a hollywood movie script... I just have to close my eyes to see the evil chinise pilot say:
"hahaha, I will now go attack the Americans, and eat all their beef jerky and leave them with the awful rice communist China gives us. oooh, nooo! I wasted my time talking... and forgot to shoot them down! aaaaaaaaah! I'm dead!"

I'm joking, but honestly... I dont understand.
 
Technological

In my head I can't see the entire fight play out but I'm not a pilot. What I can see is the F-22 sneaking up to a group or groups and launching 3 or 4 AIM-120s from short range, coming in on their flank and above. These are high percentage short shots and where stealth is deadly because the target doesn’t get a lot of warning.

The Chinese fighters would only have a general idea not much really on where the F-22s were at this point.

Could the F-22 engage again before moving out of the area because of low fuel and missile?

No pilot would fly blindly into a punch in the face some sort of tactics would be carried out by the Chinese after the first group or groups were attacked, one must assume.
 
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I'm sure it's very much like being shot at by a very well suppressed weapon in the middle of a jungle. You just don't know what hit you.
 
Besides, it's just a "simulation" excersize. Simulators run battle scenarios based on their programming. No one is really saying it'd be the case in real life. Actually, in a real war, everything that can possibly go wrong tends to go wrong.
 
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