Extra 100 Islamic schools.

[!LH@N]

"


How better to do this than by all sharing the local state schools? That is what happened at my school.

See, I'm not Redneck but I'll still answer you.
What's wrong with state funded muslim schools? If there are state funded catholic, state funded protestant and state funded jewish schools, why shouldn't there be any state funded muslim schools? He?

Regards,
Il

 

[Del Boy]

See, I'm not Redneck but I'll still answer you.
What's wrong with state funded muslim schools? If there are state funded catholic, state funded protestant and state funded jewish schools, why shouldn't there be any state funded muslim schools? He?

Regards,
Il

Hi, please to meet you. I belive that religious schools are divisive. Here, we especially need as little of that and much joining together as we can experience. I am not happy to contemplate a country divided by religion and ideology. That is taking the world backwards. I would advocate the great religions struggling to pull people together in mutual respect and and encouraging love as brethren. This is the future of religion, not the devastation of man-kind. Mere men should never use religion to seperate peoples, and therefore children should grow up mixing together and understanding each other. I believe all else is men's politics, not religion.

Regards

Del Boy.

 

[!LH@N]

Hi, please to meet you. I belive that religious schools are divisive. Here, we especially need as little of that and much joining together as we can experience. I am not happy to contemplate a country divided by religion and ideology. That is taking the world backwards. I would advocate the great religions struggling to pull people together in mutual respect and and encouraging love as brethren. This is the future of religion, not the devastation of man-kind. Mere men should never use religion to seperate peoples, and therefore children should grow up mixing together and understanding each other. I believe all else is men's politics, not religion.

Regards

Del Boy.

Hi! Pleased to meet you too!
That's an answer I could sign. I totally agree with you. Even though I'm a devout Muslim, I'm a very extreme secularist and against any kind of religious school. Look at Turkey, even though the school system sucks almost all schools are state funded, or at least supervised, and there are no such things as "religious schools", except the Imam Hatip schools, which are
professional schools for imams (if you want more information on that, and for example on the Christian equivalents of Imam Hatip's I'd be more than glad to help you).
The point, though, is that England apparently allows those religious schools, and that in that case Muslim have the equal right to open up their own religious schools.

Regards,
Il

 

[Infern0]

OK - straight question, cannot be misunderstood - do you consider religious schools divisive? Yes or no?

yes i do, but only in the fact that i find organised religion as a whole divisive.


a simple question for you now; which would you rather have in your country;


state sponsored (and therefore state monitored and approved) islamic schools where they teach an approved ciriculum.

~OR~

an independent islamic school set up, with all the risks that that may entail



see del boy, when it comes to religion im torn, while i think most/all organised religions are a crutch, too easily twisted to justify some of the most vile atrocities on our planet, im also extremely against people being discriminated against because of their faith.

there are bigots and terrorists of almost every creed out there, it's not just confined to islam

Hi, please to meet you. I belive that religious schools are divisive. Here, we especially need as little of that and much joining together as we can experience. I am not happy to contemplate a country divided by religion and ideology. That is taking the world backwards. I would advocate the great religions struggling to pull people together in mutual respect and and encouraging love as brethren. This is the future of religion, not the devastation of man-kind. Mere men should never use religion to seperate peoples, and therefore children should grow up mixing together and understanding each other. I believe all else is men's politics, not religion.

Regards

Del Boy.

^^^
she now THIS is what im talking about....i agree 100% with what you said above

 

[Del Boy]

Hi! Pleased to meet you too!
That's an answer I could sign. I totally agree with you. Even though I'm a devout Muslim, I'm a very extreme secularist and against any kind of religious school. Look at Turkey, even though the school system sucks almost all schools are state funded, or at least supervised, and there are no such things as "religious schools", except the Imam Hatip schools, which are
professional schools for imams (if you want more information on that, and for example on the Christian equivalents of Imam Hatip's I'd be more than glad to help you).
The point, though, is that England apparently allows those religious schools, and that in that case Muslim have the equal right to open up their own religious schools.

Regards,
Il

Il - I take your point. It is good to hear from Turkey. Would you like to have many Islamic religious schools? . Would you like many Christian religious schools, 100's? I am familiar with Ataturk's secular heritage to Turkey, and my hope is that they can retain it. My personal religious position mirrors your own, and it is a personal matter to me, and I respect the next man's right to his own beliefs, which I would never wish to dismiss.

I am concerned regarding anything in my country which encourages further division, and I believe that in this day and age schools should be secular and strictly monitered to encourage unity and respect and understanding.

As far as England is concerned, we do already have Muslim schools, but it is important to realise that most of our government politicians have little or no regard for religion at all, and are merely vote-gathering. The man just appointed as head of the Liberal Democrat party, on his first day of power, publically stated that he did not believe in God. That, of course, is his own business, but he obviously saw it as a vote-winner.

I guess that a great many agendas in the world do not wish our children to grow up in harmony, but that philosophy is repugnant to me, as is hatred, and particularly hatred passed on to children.

I object to those who have no religion and wish to deprive me of mine; I accept that they have a different relationship with God than I, but my business is my business, and theirs is theirs. I will always support a man's rights, religious or not; to pursue them in peace and friendship.

I believe this attitude is typical of my country's heritage.

Regards

Del Boy.

 

[A Can of Man]

Sometimes what can happen when you ALL go to the same school is polarization happens there.
Here's an example.
A minority gets bullied by the majority and seeks comfort in groups with other minorities of his type. They start feeling more detached and more hostile towards the majority. They start looking at groups ABROAD that are more similar to them and start developing unrealistic fantastic ideas of life under the extreme versions of their values etc. They start working actively to bring down or kill the majority, if anything out of spite and hatred.
If you have divided schools, this problem does not occur at young, impressionable ages. They realize that even within their own group there are some really bad eggs. It is more obvious when you are not in conflict with someone "not like you." With the right kind of teaching of mutual understanding, although a certain line between the groups may exist, they will not see the need to be hostile to each other.
It's simplified but that is what I am talking about.
Some of the most extreme Koreans are ones who do not live in Korea just as the most hard line Jews do not live in Israel.

 

[Infern0]

excellent point redneck

 

[!LH@N]

Il - I take your point. It is good to hear from Turkey. Would you like to have many Islamic religious schools? . Would you like many Christian religious schools, 100's? I am familiar with Ataturk's secular heritage to Turkey, and my hope is that they can retain it. My personal religious position mirrors your own, and it is a personal matter to me, and I respect the next man's right to his own beliefs, which I would never wish to dismiss.

I do not wish to have many religious schools. In fact, I do not wish to have any religious schools whatsoever. I don't care which religion. The only type of religious schools I wish to keep would be professional school, that is schools where the profession of rabbi/priest/imam/you name it is thought. Then we do not need religious schools.
Now, there are certain Christian private schools in Turkey. That would be the schools of the Armenian and Greek minorities, and I think that these schools are needed in order to secure that those minorities can keep their heritage. The problem, though, is that this may and does lead to division (as you said).
Now Christian seminaries do face a lot of trouble in Turkey, but that's a totally different issue.

I am concerned regarding anything in my country which encourages further division, and I believe that in this day and age schools should be secular and strictly monitered to encourage unity and respect and understanding.

I totally agree.

As far as England is concerned, we do already have Muslim schools, but it is important to realise that most of our government politicians have little or no regard for religion at all, and are merely vote-gathering. The man just appointed as head of the Liberal Democrat party, on his first day of power, publically stated that he did not believe in God. That, of course, is his own business, but he obviously saw it as a vote-winner.

I think we do have the same problem in Turkey. The people in power are using religion for vote-gathering. Not so much in Germany (where I live) though, I think the ruling Christian Democrat Party is very hardcore Christian and anti-muslim/-Turkish/-immigrant.

I guess that a great many agendas in the world do not wish our children to grow up in harmony, but that philosophy is repugnant to me, as is hatred, and particularly hatred passed on to children.

I object to those who have no religion and wish to deprive me of mine; I accept that they have a different relationship with God than I, but my business is my business, and theirs is theirs. I will always support a man's rights, religious or not; to pursue them in peace and friendship.

I believe this attitude is typical of my country's heritage.

Regards

Del Boy.

I totally agree with what you are saying.

Redneck, I see the point you are making, but I don't have any personal experience with those kinds of private schools, so I can't really judge on that. What I do think though is that kids who went to "islamic" schools over here in Germany tend to be more radical, same with Turkey.

Regards,
Il

 

[Del Boy]

Il - I take on board, understand, agree with and appreciate everything you say here. At least there are two of us! Wait - looks like we have another here, reported below!

Muslims are not discriminated against in my country, rather, perhaps, we discriminate against ourselves, which is now causing concerns I have to say.The below report is revealing, and I was very pleased to read it (the cricket reference is irrelevant of course, within the wider context)




By JANE MERRICK - Last updated at 00:29am on 28th December 2007

Muslims living in England should be proud to support the national cricket team and should celebrate the country they belong to, Britain's first Muslim Minister said last night.

Shahid Malik issued a call to the Islamic community to embrace, not reject, Englishness as part of their identity.
The International Development Minister said he did not endorse the "cricket test" proposed by former Tory Cabinet Minister Norman Tebbit. But he said he and many of his Muslim friends were enthusiastic fans of England's football and cricket teams.

Fly the flag: Shahid Malik says many Muslim cricket fans are happy to support England..

Muslims living in Britain enjoyed greater freedoms than anywhere in the Islamic world, the MP added..

He said it was "hardly surprising" that extremists did not accept Muslims as English if those minorities did not see themselves in that way.

Mr Malik said: "My message to young Muslims is 'Be proud to be English and don't let anyone steal your identity away. This is one of the greatest nations in the world and we should be proud to live here - let's shout about it a bit more'."

The Labour MP's comments will reignite the debate about what it means to be British, which has been spearheaded by Gordon Brown.
Lord Tebbit once claimed that the true test of an immigrant's loyalty was whether he would support England in a cricket match against his country of origin.
Mr Malik's family roots are in Pakistan, but he was born in Burnley, Lancashire, and he supports England's cricketers against Pakistan. He said: "I find quite a lot of Muslims who are now very enthusiastic supporters of the English football team.
"But supporting a team is not the true test of being English. It's about the country you consider your home, the place where you will raise your kids.
"I'm very proud to support the England football and cricket teams but I don't believe that is the defining element of your national identity."
Mr Malik said in his youth he backed "anyone but England" at sport "because I had a notion of Englishness coloured by what the BNP said".
It was when he visited Scotland and met Asians who wore the kilt and were proud to be Scottish that he embraced Englishness.
He said: "It was a liberating experience - I realised I could be proud to be English."
The MP now holds St George's Day coffee mornings in his constituency to bring together people from all minorities to celebrate a shared English identity.

"Englishness encompasses anyone who has an allegiance to this country, pays their taxes here, considers this their home. If you do these things, you are English," he said.

Mr Malik, who is getting married in the New Year, became the first Muslim member of the Government when he was appointed International Development Minister by Gordon Brown in July.

A former member of the Commission for Racial Equality, he has advised the Government on community issues. One of the four 7/7 suicide bombers was from his Dewsbury constituency.

Mr Malik added last night: "The rights and freedoms we enjoy in England and the UK are better than any other country in the world for Muslims, better than any country in the Islamic world."

The Minister warned it was up to British Muslims to stand up for democracy. "With these freedoms come responsibilities and we all need to speak out more if we see something that is not right, whether it's Islamic extremists or the BNP._________________
-

 

[!LH@N]

I agree with this minister. Of course being English is part of their identity. But I think keeping their heritage in mind (for example Pakistani) is part of their identity, too. It just depends on how much the population accepts you or not, you know. I can't know how it is in the UK but here in Germany I have a somehow mixed experience. Of course Germany defined great parts of my personality, but I often face racism here and I wouldn't be accepted as German even if I tried. Plus, really my cultural heritage and homeland is Turkey, Germany is home too, though. I will support Germany in every match, except when they play Turkey
As said, I agree with you and it just depends on how much much the "British" population accepts the Muslim community as a part of themselves.

Regards,
Il

 

[Del Boy]

see del boy, when it comes to religion im torn, while i think most/all organised religions are a crutch, too easily twisted to justify some of the most vile atrocities on our planet, im also extremely against people being discriminated against because of their faith.

there are bigots and terrorists of almost every creed out there, it's not just confined to islam/quote




I have to point out that your opening sentence is the oldest outworn cliche in the book, and in England no-one would suggest to a muslim that his religion was a crutch.

As for discrimination - in how many Islamic countries can a church be built, or churchbells rung, or Christian festivals celebrated, or people allowed to accept religions other than Islam?

As for your last sentence, you must have your head buried in the sand to not recognise that many countries are under dire threat from the current extreme militant Islamic ideology. Denial, my friend, is something to beware.

 

[MontyB]

As for discrimination - in how many Islamic countries can a church be built, or churchbells rung, or Christian festivals celebrated, or people allowed to accept religions other than Islam?

As the most populous Muslim country in the world Indonesia has many churches as in fact do most middle eastern countries although as I understand it Saudi Arabia doesn't (I could be wrong it was a brief serach).

As for your last sentence, you must have your head buried in the sand to not recognise that many countries are under dire threat from the current extreme militant Islamic ideology. Denial, my friend, is something to beware.

Care to list these "many" countries?
No offense but it is hard to determine where the fear mongering stops and the real threat starts.

 

[Del Boy]

"As the most populous Muslim country in the world Indonesia has many churches as in fact do most middle eastern countries although as I understand it Saudi Arabia doesn't (I could be wrong it was a brief serach)."quote
..................................................


Must have been a very brief search indeed - get the ol' wiki working.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Care to list these "many" countries?
No offense but it is hard to determine where the fear mongering stops and the real threat starts.

No offence - but as I said, heads buried in sand. QED.

---------------------------------------------


Oh. BTW - do you support religious schools? You forget to tell us.


---------------------------------
Give me liberty or give me death.

 

[!LH@N]

Turkey. Many many churches, church bells are allowed to ring. Nobody can do anything against that. Quite the contrary in Germany, people can sue they churches if they feel annoyed by church bells.
And I have to say infern0 is right with Indonesia.

Regards,
Il

 

[MontyB]

No offence - but as I said, heads buried in sand. QED.

---------------------------------------------


Oh. BTW - do you support religious schools? You forget to tell us.


---------------------------------
Give me liberty or give me death.

I will take it that you cannot list these countries in which case your argument is more political than factual.

As for my views on religion and their schools well rather than type another answer that says the same thing, these are pretty much my views on the matter as well.

yes i do, but only in the fact that i find organised religion as a whole divisive.


a simple question for you now; which would you rather have in your country;


state sponsored (and therefore state monitored and approved) islamic schools where they teach an approved ciriculum.

~OR~

an independent islamic school set up, with all the risks that that may entail



see del boy, when it comes to religion im torn, while i think most/all organised religions are a crutch, too easily twisted to justify some of the most vile atrocities on our planet, im also extremely against people being discriminated against because of their faith.

there are bigots and terrorists of almost every creed out there, it's not just confined to islam

However I suspect you knew this and are just trying to divert attention from a weak argument.

Turkey. Many many churches, church bells are allowed to ring. Nobody can do anything against that. Quite the contrary in Germany, people can sue they churches if they feel annoyed by church bells.
And I have to say infern0 is right with Indonesia.

Regards,
Il

Indeed as I understand it Morocco also has a history of being open minded toward religion although they have had some issues recently to a large degree I think a long period of political stability is required for this type of thought process to take hold.

 

[Del Boy]

see del boy, when it comes to religion im torn, while i think most/all organised religions are a crutch, too easily twisted to justify some of the most vile atrocities on our planet, im also extremely against people being discriminated against because of their faith.

there are bigots and terrorists of almost every creed out there, it's not just confined to islam/quote




I have to point out that your opening sentence is the oldest outworn cliche in the book, and in England no-one would suggest to a muslim that his religion was a crutch.

As for discrimination - in how many Islamic countries can a church be built, or churchbells rung, or Christian festivals celebrated, or people allowed to accept religions other than Islam?

As for your last sentence, you must have your head buried in the sand to not recognise that many countries are under dire threat from the current extreme militant Islamic ideology. Denial, my friend, is something to beware.

MONTY B.

You quote Inferno and like him you hate religion but you jump to use it for your agendas, like supporting religious schools. I quote my response above.

My 'weak' argument is such that you cannot answer it. In fact you cannot even read it! I give you another shot at it,

See if you can come up with some sort of an answer and in doing so do not ignore parts of it completely. That is, before you call it weak.

I have my facts ready, do you have yours?


----------------------------------------------
give me liberty or give me death.

 

[MontyB]

MONTY B.

You quote Inferno and like him you hate religion but you jump to use it for your agendas, like supporting religious schools.

My 'weak' argument is such that you cannot answer it. In fact you cannot even read it!To give you another shot at it, I have quoted it above.

See if you can come up with some sort of an answer and in doing so do not ignore parts of it completely. That is, before you call it weak.
Perhaps you could try this off your own bat and not quote others, to whom I have already responded.

When you have done this I will respond . How many countries have you come up with so far? C'mon, we are talking discrimination here, one of your favourites.

But once again you jump to conclusions and then extrapolate it to suit your point of view, I don't hate religion I think it is fine for those that want to follow it (but it is not for me) and if people want build schools to teach it I am all for it as long as I personally am not required to support it financially.

Incidentally I quote Infern0 because I agree with him and that is all also your desire to ignore an answer does not mean that the question hasn't been answered.

 

[Infern0]

As for discrimination - in how many Islamic countries can a church be built, or churchbells rung, or Christian festivals celebrated, or people allowed to accept religions other than Islam?

quick search =

indonesia, malaysia, pakistan, turkey, iraq, iran, egypt.... the only one that they REALLY put their foot down is saudi.

Islam

Some Islamic theologians quote the Quran ("There is no compulsion in religion," Sura 2:257) to show scriptural support for religious freedom. There are, however, other verses and text from the Hadith that dictate severe treatment to those who fight against the islamic state, which have been taken out of context and extended to all non-believers, either by radical groups, or by anti-islamic critics. Along the history there has been a successful coexistance between muslims and non-muslim. In modern days, some islamic countries have discirminating laws against non-muslims.
In Iran, the constitution recognizes four religions whose status is formally protected: Zoroastrianism, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.

more completely;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Status_of_religious_freedom_by_country

besides, when is "what they do" a deciding point for what WE do?

You quote Inferno and like him you hate religion

putting words in my mouth now are we?


i dont "hate" religion at all...they very fact i spend much of my time defending people of the islamic faith on here should be indicative of that.

it's not for me, i wish people didn't need to cling to organised religion, and i see organised religion as being the major cause for much of the strife and atrocities in our world today....


but i dont "hate" it


you know del boy....i think you have a long way to go before you "get" me. listen, dont assume

 

[Del Boy]

You still haven't answered my question re discrimination in Islamic countries today. In fact you haven't READ my question, any more than Monty B has. You have both avoided most of the areas on my list. Do you want me to put them to you individually? In retrospect, perhaps I should have specified 'choose' other religions, and not 'accept'. (choose as in convert to).

As it happens, every one of those countries you mention, with the exception of Iran, are countries under threat from extreme militant Islam, along with a great many others, as I stated regarding heads in sand.

But in none of them today, with the possible exception of secular Turkey, could you BUILD a christian church, whereas we establish new mosques in Britain constantly. You will find that with the exception of secularTurkey, the other practices I listed are unacceptable also.

You obviously also avoided reading the report of our Muslim minister, post 29, stating that Britain is the best place in the world for muslims to live. In this brave new world, it is the christians who are discriminated against throughout the muslim world, unfortunately.


In Britain, muslims are not discriminated against. Why do you think they are fighting to get in? Illegals are turning down very large sums of money to leave.

BTW - I think your 'ISLAM' quote makes my point for me, if read carefully.

PS. I take back the 'hate'. It was the opinion impressed on me by both of you.( From your post it sounds selective though.)
Do you also not hate christianity?

 

[MontyB]

You still haven't answered my question re discrimination in Islamic countries today. In fact you haven't READ my question, any more than Monty B has. You have both avoided most of the areas on my list. Do you want me to put them to you individually? In retrospect, perhaps I should have specified 'choose' other religions, and not 'accept'. (choose as in convert to).

As it happens, every one of those countries you mention, with the exception of Iran, are countries under threat from extreme militant Islam, along with a great many others, as I stated regarding heads in sand.

But in none of them today, with the possible exception of secular Turkey, could you BUILD a christian church, whereas we establish new mosques in Britain constantly. You will find that with the exception of secularTurkey, the other practices I listed are unacceptable also.

You obviously also avoided reading the report of our Muslim minister, post 29, stating that Britain is the best place in the world for muslims to live. In this brave new world, it is the christians who are discriminated against throughout the muslim world, unfortunately.


In Britain, muslims are not discriminated against. Why do you think they are fighting to get in? Illegals are turning down very large sums of money to leave.

BTW - I think your 'ISLAM' quote makes my point for me, if read carefully.

PS. I take back the 'hate'. It was the opinion impressed on me by both of you.( From your post it sounds selective though.)
Do you also not hate christianity?

What the hell are you rabbiting on about?
Seriously as far as I can tell your questions have been answered by multiple people and all of them have pretty much said the same thing, as I posted earlier just because the answer does not suit your agenda doesn't mean that the question was not answered. Accept it and for the sake of what ever deity you have chosen move on.

PS. I take back the 'hate'. It was the opinion impressed on me by both of you.( From your post it sounds selective though.)
Do you also not hate christianity?

This would be funny if it was not sad.
I will answer for myself as I wouldn't presume to speak for Infern0... I don't hate any religion I just don't care about any religion its just not for me, people have the right to believe in whatever they like and I will happily defend their right to do so but I will not put one above the other which means that while I would prefer my government does not fund religious schools if they do choose to fund one then I believe they must fund all regardless of sect.