Exploring the Facts: Tibet and Tianamen Square




 
--
Boots
 
December 10th, 2004  
godofthunder9010
 
 

Topic: Exploring the Facts: Tibet and Tianamen Square


Numerous 'People's Republic of China' related threads have referred to both the Invasion of Tibet by the PRC and the Tianamen Square affair. My intent is to create a thread for the sole purpose of sorting out fact from fiction and establishing the facts related to these two events.

I'm hoping we can all be civilized and not start throwing around insults nor racial remarks. Considering the sensativity of these two topics, emotions need to kept under control. Otherwise this is a complete waste of time and effort.

My main purpose to attempt to get the facts straight so that everytime somebody brings those two events up, we don't get caught in the flame war involving everybody calling everybody else "liars" etc.

Here is what Wikpedia has to say about Tibet:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tibet#History
Quote:
During the Cultural Revolution there was a campaign of organized vandalism against Tibet's Buddhist heritage in the same fashion as Red Guard destruction of Chinese cultural heritage sites throughout China. Of the many thousands of monasteries in Tibet, less than a handful remained unscathed.

The figure of 1.2 million is often quoted as the number of Tibetans, military and civilian, that have died as the result of the invasion and occupation of Tibet. This number has its origin in the report of a commission established by the exile community in Dharamsala which is based on reports of refugees. According to Patrick French, a supporter of the Tibetan cause, who was able to view the data and calculations, this number is not reliable as, to put it simply, the Tibetans were not able to process the data well enough to produce a credible total. However, there were many casualties, perhaps as many as 500,000. This figure is extrapolated from a calculation Warren W. Smith made from Chinese census reports which show 200,000 "missing" from Tibet proper (it is assumed that there were similar casualties in Amdo and Kham). Even The Black Book of Communism expresses doubt at the 1.2 million figure, but does note that according to Chinese census there was a population of 2.8 million in 1953, but only 2.5 million in 1964 in Tibet proper.

It is reported that when the general secretary of the Chinese Communist Party, Hu Yaobang visited Lhasa in 1980 he cried in shame when he viewed the misery and described the situation as "colonialism pure and simple". Reforms were instituted. Since then Chinese policy in Tibet has veered between moderation and repression. Most religious freedoms have been officially restored, but monks and nuns are still sometimes imprisoned.
Here's What Wikpedia has to say about Tianamen Square:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiananm...otests_of_1989
Quote:
The Tiananmen Square protests were a set of national protests in the People's Republic of China, which occurred between April 15, 1989 and June 4, 1989, centered at Tiananmen Square in Beijing. The focus of the protests was the occupation of the Square by college and university students advocating democratic reforms.

The People's Liberation Army intervened to clear the Square of demonstrators during the night of June 4. The protesters left the Square relatively peacefully, but violent incidents continued on the streets surrounding the Square, with many protesters killed or injured by automatic weapons fire. Estimates of civilian deaths vary: 400-800 (New York Times & Hammond sources ( http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat7.htm#Chinat )), 2600 (Chinese Red Cross). Injuries are generally held to have numbered from 7,000 to 10,000. After the crackdown in Beijing, protests continued in much of China for a number of days. The PRC government was able to end these protests outside of Beijing, apparently without significant loss of life.
That should be a start. Wikpedia tends to do a good job on their facts so that should be a good place to start.
December 10th, 2004  
rocco
 
1. who could blame china for taking easy land, but atleast let people live how they want

2. wasnt ready for democracy
December 10th, 2004  
godofthunder9010
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rocco
1. who could blame china for taking easy land, but atleast let people live how they want

2. wasnt ready for democracy
Mind telling us what you're referring to? Bit more detail ... You're talking about Tibet, right?
--
Boots
December 10th, 2004  
MadeInChina
 
chinese red cross stated 2600 death???

well, godofthunder, hwo about posting links that isnt .com or anything westernized, or biased. cmon, the encyclopedia says 5-6000 deaths when it was actually just under 300

the injured is around 10,000, thats true, though it is higher than the references i've found, probaly close to 15,000 to be sure

a picture tells a thousand words, please post some pictures indiciting anything radical
December 10th, 2004  
rocco
 
are you trying to say western links are biased? in comparison to what again? the chinese media? i wonder how much of china's media isnt state owned.

liberals may have you believe that everyone has a view and there are different views of the truth based on different perspectives but thats a rotten load of... there is only ONE truth.
anyways, im sure we can all agree that western media's, even though still biased, are less biased than other country media.

Quote:
Mind telling us what you're referring to? Bit more detail ... You're talking about Tibet, right?
i used both tianemen and tibet issue for a different thread, and thus i belioeve you were reffering to me when you say threads are reffering to those two incidents. although i used them because someone from china stated america is most aggressive country in the world (i feel strong about america), i used them just to show that no one is clean from aggression. and as tibet goes, i dont blame china for taking over tibet, they consider it part of their anncient homeland dont they? i have nothing against united china... but what i dont like is how the chinese have treated the tibetens. the chinese should thank the giods of communism that tibet hasnt used terroris=m, even after how they are treated.
for tienamen square, IMO for china those people could have stated something that would be dangerous for china (its hard for me to explain whats in my head) , so imo to hold china together, the people who did not think like the majority had to be dealt with, well thats what i think the government believed...
December 10th, 2004  
HEHEHAHA
 
it is nothing wrong to ask for democracy, the Tianamen massive killings is a big mistake, no doubt about it, those responsible should be brought to justice.
December 10th, 2004  
Italian Guy
 
 
So bad to see most- almost all of - Chinese posters in here are made blind by their regime.
December 10th, 2004  
jz
 
Shoot Italians
December 10th, 2004  
Italian Guy
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jz
Shoot Italians

What?
December 10th, 2004  
jz
 
Kill u with a perfect headshot.