Experts say Brazil-France defence pact wrong choice




 
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October 11th, 2008  
rock45
 

Topic: Experts say Brazil-France defence pact wrong choice


I always felt Brazil's need to build a nuclear sub was crazy the time needed not to mention funding is just off the charts. Brazil's Navy must have a lot of support and big ass pull in government to get such a high price ticket this far.
I don't know a lot about the EC725 but France does have a rep for being costly overall. I assume its a good performer and maybe Brazil wanted something more dependable then a Hip-171? I read in different places that people have mixed opinions on Russian helicopters but customers are still buying them.

Experts say Brazil-France defence pact wrong choice
Fri 10 Oct 2008, 16:18 GMT


By Eduardo Simoes
SAO PAULO (Reuters) - Brazil will sign a strategic defence alliance with France in December that it hopes will boost the domestic weapons industry, but critics say it may be choosing the wrong military equipment for its needs.
As part of the pact, Brazil will build a nuclear-powered submarine and around 50 helicopters under licence from the French. It has also short-listed France's Dassault in a tender for at least 36 fighter jets.
Brazil, Latin America's largest country and economy, is planning to build up its military capabilities partly to help protect huge recent oil finds off its southern coast.
But defence industry analysts say U.S. or Russian aircraft are generally more suited to Brazil's continent-sized territory and that the nuclear-propelled submarine is too expensive and inappropriate for Brazilian waters.
"I don't think it's our best (choice) strategically," said Gunther Rudzit, a former defence ministry advisor.
Choosing France was a political compromise to neither depend on U.S. technology nor alienate Washington by choosing Russia, which supplies planes to the declared U.S. enemy Venezuela, analysts said.
"With (Russia's) approach to Venezuela, the United States said it wouldn't oppose a military accord between Brazil and France," said Jorge Zaverucha, professor of politics at the Federal University in northeastern Pernambuco state.
Brazil's leftist president, Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva, maintains cordial relations with the United States but often distrusts Washington's interests in South America.
France's President Nicolas Sarkozy said in February he agreed in principle to have French submarines and helicopters built in Brazil and intended to sign a strategic alliance.
Brazil last year earmarked $880 million to complete a nuclear reactor it wants to mount on a submarine built in Brazil under licence by the French.
NOISY SUBS
Critics say the nuclear submarines would be easily detected because of the noise of their reactors, especially in the shallow waters along Brazil's coast, and are too expensive for the country's tight budget.
"It'll be the craziest thing we'll ever do," said Expedito Bastos, defence researcher at the Federal University Juiz de Fora in central Minas Gerais state.
"Wouldn't 20 conventional submarines be much better? We'd have a fantastic fleet in the open sea and could control our entire coast," said Bastos.
Brazil's Navy now has only five German-made submarines to patrol a coastline of more than 7,300 km (4,525 miles).
The Navy argues that a nuclear submarine can stay under water longer and travel further, thereby adding to the country's defence powers.
Critics also question Brazil's decision to short-list Dassault's Rafale and for Eurocopter, a subsidiary of EADS, to build around 50 EC-725 helicopters in Brazil.
"For a country of continental dimensions, I think American and Russian equipment would be more adequate," said Rudzit. "The Russians have a tradition of building large helicopters that can carry more soldiers or cargo."
In addition to Dassault's Rafale, Boeing's F-18 E/F Super Hornet and SAAB's Gripen are finalists in the Air Force tender for next-generation, multi-role fighter jet to replace its entire fleet over the next 15 years. The total order could increase to more than 100 aircraft.
The Defence Ministry was not immediately available to comment.
(Writing by Raymond Colitt; Editing by John O'Callaghan)


Link
http://africa.reuters.com/world/news/usnTRE49972A.html
November 12th, 2008  
Túlio
 
 
Quote:
I always felt Brazil's need to build a nuclear sub was crazy the time needed not to mention funding is just off the charts. Brazil's Navy must have a lot of support and big ass pull in government to get such a high price ticket this far.I always felt Brazil's need to build a nuclear sub was crazy the time needed not to mention funding is just off the charts. Brazil's Navy must have a lot of support and big ass pull in government to get such a high price ticket this far.
It seems to be an important matter for our government to defend the pre-salt oil reserves, very far from the shore. Besides, nuc subs would make a lot expensive an attack against our territory. From land the neighbours are weak and strongly nacionalists, so they would never give permission to foreign forces to cross their borders. Land and air, i say. So, an invasion from a powerful country must come from the sea. Nuc subs will deal with this, as a pretty long range weapon sistem...

Quote:
I don't know a lot about the EC725 but France does have a rep for being costly overall. I assume its a good performer and maybe Brazil wanted something more dependable then a Hip-171? I read in different places that people have mixed opinions on Russian helicopters but customers are still buying them.
The main difference for us between EADS and Mil is that we have an EADS factory in Brazil (Helibrás) an so we can make those helos here.


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Our next fighter (i guess) will probably be the french Rafale, a real multirole fighter. I see the Super Hornet as a powerful bomber-truck (like our P-47 Thunderbolts in WW2) and the Gripen as a little too small for our big-sized country (as our F-5 Tiger II). According to the FAB's (FAB = Força Aérea Brasileira / Brazilian Air Force) Commander, Brig. Saito, the russians felt for lack of a clear policy of technology transfers...
November 12th, 2008  
rock45
 

Topic: Brazil


Hi Túlio
The threat to the oil wouldn't be really protected by one nuclear sub against a strong naval power. The surface ships needs out weight the cost for one nuke Boat I think. It's hard to project power with a sub without giving away it's position. Enemy vessels approaching the offshore wells if attacking would have many subs so again one isn't enough to offset much. Very few world navies could project power needed to seized oil wells off your countries coast. I assume the United States would help we if China or Russia tried to do such a thing.

Quote:
The main difference for us between EADS and Mil is that we have an EADS factory in Brazil (Helibrás) an so we can make those helos here.
Having a factory is one thing but is it capable of producing one of Frances latest helicopters? I can assure you there are major differences between the Hip-17 series and French made helicopters the first being the price. I would rate the systems and engines better on the French helicopters as well.

I agree with you that Frances Rafale's stands a good chance landing the FX-2 bid but your country has strong industry ties with Saab and South Africa so the Gripen isn't out the question. It's range is only a little less the Rafale and Brazil used short range fighter for years F-5, Mirage III, the Gripen C/D and the NA would surpass those by many hundreds of miles. Brazil and SA have a good missile program going on so one never knows. I think Brazil very close with the Israeli's too and maybe the EL-2045 radar might work into this mix somehow.
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November 12th, 2008  
Túlio
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rock45
Hi Túlio
The threat to the oil wouldn't be really protected by one nuclear sub against a strong naval power. The surface ships needs out weight the cost for one nuke Boat I think. It's hard to project power with a sub without giving away it's position. Enemy vessels approaching the offshore wells if attacking would have many subs so again one isn't enough to offset much. Very few world navies could project power needed to seized oil wells off your countries coast. I assume the United States would help we if China or Russia tried to do such a thing.
Hi friend 'The rock!!!' lol


Are you Brazilian too? I'm Túlio from Defesa Brasil!!!

Just a lil' question? Who said JUST ONE SUB???



Quote:
Originally Posted by rock45
Having a factory is one thing but is it capable of producing one of Frances latest helicopters? I can assure you there are major differences between the Hip-17 series and French made helicopters the first being the price. I would rate the systems and engines better on the French helicopters as well.

Yep, i know the Hips are a lot cheaper. Brazil, as we both know, is too far from Europe, so producing the helos and assuring it's maintenance locally is great, much better than just buy and buy and buy again, always 'off the shelf'! About being capable of producing, EADS is investing dozens of millions (US$) to increase it's facility's capabilities and sophistication...


Quote:
Originally Posted by rock45
I agree with you that Frances Rafale's stands a good chance landing the FX-2 bid but your country has strong industry ties with Saab and South Africa so the Gripen isn't out the question. It's range is only a little less the Rafale and Brazil used short range fighter for years F-5, Mirage III, the Gripen C/D and the NA would surpass those by many hundreds of miles. Brazil and SA have a good missile program going on so one never knows. I think Brazil very close with the Israeli's too and maybe the EL-2045 radar might work into this mix somehow.
Well, perhaps we're closing to MORE missile programs with SA, a BVR AAM and some antiaircraft like the Umkhonto, but radar homing (it was mentioned near a week ago in Brazil). But missiles are missiles and here they are researched for Mectron; aircraft is the EMBRAER's area, and it's very close to the French. However, i know the government decides in the end, not the companies. lololol

Anyway, i'ts just MY point of view, i think the Rafale gonna be our next fighter, but i shall confess that a couple of months ago i thought it would be the Sukhoys...
November 12th, 2008  
rock45
 

Topic: Brazil


I'm American but have a Brazilian/American friend who I respect very much and like the country.

Going with production/repair EU helicopters is the better route to go.

I read where 1 nuke Boat and 4 diesel Boats but I guess things could change.

Brazil doesn't have a lot of threats around them I don't count Venezuela new toys. I think Brazil can put Venezuela in it's place if need be. The Rafale would serve Brazil very well but let me tell you your pilots would be very pleased with F/A-18 E/F Block-II Hornets. It's the second most advance fighter flying besides the F-22 and carries every weapon under the sun.

The Rafale does have more range then the Hornet and I would rate it a better dog fighters. But air to air combat is so rare attack, recon, patrols any of the three choices would work.

Cost wise
Rafale is the highest plus I have read in other forums the MICA cost a lot more then the ARRAMS

Daily operational cost - all three are very modern platforms and do very well in this area, the Rafale being the oldest. The E/F Hornet is around 60% new design over the C/D models

Out of the three choices the Gripen or Rafale can't touch the AESA radar in the Block-II Hornet 2nd generation +, years ahead of everybody period.

1 vs 1 or 2 vs 2, I know the Rafale would-might do better against Chavez Flankers, then a Hornet. Brazil AWACS, data link, plus best air to air missile in the world (ARRAM) and much better skilled Air Force would overcome the few short comings of the Hornet.

I have always read good things about Brazil's AF, equipment, training, and personnel.
 


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