Ex-Hostage Disputes U.S. on Iraq Shooting (AP)

Charge_7 said:
Uh, huh, and if she was "deliberately targeted" do you think she'd be alive to say so?
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Which is exactly what the right is trying to explain to the country, man. If she was targeted she could have been killed easily. At a point it was just the soldiers, her, and the dead agent in the dark. They could have completed their "mission". But- hey- what can you pretend from a commie?
 
Hi,

Communism has NOTHIGN to Do with Lying :roll: .

It was a Unfornuate incident and she is using it for her personal gains ........... it might be a fault on the part of US solders or maybe the Car Driver thats a diffetrent Issue and is being Investigated ............ and the Investigation result might also be pollytacally motivated ......... oo well they all lie ;) :D

Most of the Italians are Against Italy's Involvement in Iraq and this is a Perfect Oppournity for them to cash in ............ it's all aboput Politics

Lets not Debate Communism and Lying here .......... Communism as a Philosophy ... and i don't see anywhere that it preached lying .......... I have seen Demacratioc Politicians Lying more or less than anyone else

Peace
-=SF_13=-
 
Sure, politicians no matter what the ideology will lie their butts off. But Communism in itself is a lie. And just happens that people who are delusional enough to believe in that would be delusional enough to believe this version of the rescue story.
 
Hi,

Communism as a Pholisofy has never been tested ............... in Soviet Union we had Lennism and in China we had maoism?

So how can we comment Commonism the Original Philosofy when it has never been tested ?

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Back to Topic

Two Accounts of the Incident :

US:-- Forces fired on a vehicle that was approaching at high speed

--Troops attempted to warn the driver to stop by hand and arm signals, flashing white lights, and firing warning shots

--When the driver didn't stop, the soldiers shot into the engine block

Sgrena:

--The driver had spoken twice to the embassy and to Italy that we were on our way to the airport

--We were less than a kilometre [from the airport]... when... I remember there was shooting

--The driver began screaming that we were Italian

--We weren't going particularly fast given that type of situation

Source : BBC News



In an interview with the BBC's Newshour programme, freed Italian hostage Giuliana Sgrena began by describing the conditions in which she had been held hostage for a month.

The condition of life was not bad from the material point of view but I was in a position of risk and so you can imagine it was not easy, it was very difficult and very hard to spend the days as prisoner in Iraq.

What did your captors tell you when you were hostage?

That I needed to help them to ask [Silvio] Berlusconi to withdraw the troops. They saw all what happens in Italy, demonstrations against the occupation, demonstrations for my liberation. And so they [became] aware that I was really working against the occupation and people were supporting me and so they told me: "We have seen that you are very appreciated in Italy". And that helped me to be freed.

You then became aware presumably that negotiations were going on about your possible release.


I can't say it was deliberate because we can't say if there was a lack of information

I could imagine that negotiations were going on but I can't tell you more because I was not aware of what was the object of the negotiations. And when I was freed it was the last of my problems which kind of negotiations were going on.

You do not know whether money was paid for your freedom?

No, I don't know.

Tell us about the man [Italian security agent Nicola Calipari] who came to try and secure your release.

I saw him for the first time when he came to [collect] me. He was a very special man. I immediately felt in contact with him and he gave me hope. But this was too short because he died after half an hour.

Tell us about the car journey you shared with him.

We were on our way to the airport when the tanks started to strike against us and he tried to cover me and he was shot. He died and, me, I was safe but he was dead.

When did you become aware that your car was being fired at?

We had no signal. We were just on the way to the airport. They started to shoot at us without any light or signal. There was no block, there was nothing. It was so immediate. I didn't know how I was alive after all that attack.

Why do you think the Americans opened fire?

We were not a hidden car. We were just a car on the road with lights and we were not running without any signal. So you have to ask the Americans because we don't know what happened.

Did the Americans continue to fire when your car had come to a halt?

Our car was destroyed. And then the driver got out and was shouting "we're Italian, we're Italian". So they came and they saw what happened. But I was badly injured so I can't explain exactly what happened after because I was waiting for 20 minutes on the road for a military car to bring me to the hospital.

I don't know if they knew what they were doing or not but it's a big responsibility so they have to respond to what happened because it's impossible to shoot a car on a road to the airport without giving any signal, any stop or any check.

Do you think it was deliberate?

I can't say it was deliberate because we can't say if there was a lack of information. But also a lack of information in this case is [their] responsibility because you are in a war field and you have the responsibility to pass immediately any information.

The information was given to the Italians to tell the Americans that we were on the road. Now, I can't say why they shot at us in this way but it's a very big responsibility and we ask for a response on what happened.

So what did this security agent do when he heard the firing?

When the driver said "they're attacking us", one of the [agents] tried to say we're Italians but it was impossible to get out of the car because the car was under this rain of fire.

And the other one tried to protect me and he died. I was pushing down to avoid the bullets and after I don't know how long, I found that he was dead.

He died in your arms?

Yes.

How do you feel about the man who saved your life?

I am very, very sad and feel pain for him. I'm sorry not to be able to go to the funeral because I am in hospital.

He was a brave man.

Yes.

Source
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Peace
-=SF_13=-
 
Well at least she still admits that they did not STOP! I dont care if they were doing 10 miles an hour! They did not stop!

It's tragic, awful that soldiers lost their lives due to what amounts to lack of communication.
 
Communism has been tested and it failed with flying colors.
Basically it was so flawed that it simply failed on the way to Communism. What do you do in Communism? The government (basically the community organizing comittee) gets everything, the people await distribution. That is an automatic move to dictatorship. That's why it's a failure. To say the government will spread that wealth equally while the people temporarily have zero power is a lie.
 
Hi,

Well at least she still admits that they did not STOP! I dont care if they were doing 10 miles an hour! They did not stop!
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I belive what she is talking about is that it wasn't a Permenant Check Post .............. In which you have a barracade in the Middle of the Road to slow Vehicles down............. it was one of those Surprise Road Block in which you generally park a Armored Vehicle on Road Side used for Surprice Checks.............. it easy to miss those Sometimes .......... especially when you are heading for the Airport in a hurry and you know that you are this close to geting out :?

Communism has been tested and it failed with flying colors.
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Whether Anybody has ever Implemented True Marxism is open for debate.

Peace
-=SF-13=-
 
"it was one of those Surprise Road Block in which you generally park a Armored Vehicle on Road Side used for Surprice Checks.............. it easy to miss those Sometimes"

You were there then? Yeah so easy to miss. We shoot everybody who comes near those right? Puulleeaassee.
 
Hi,

You were there then? Yeah so easy to miss. We shoot everybody who comes near those right? Puulleeaassee.
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It's a War Zone and the Desicion is a Split Second one ............ it's either you or them ............ It was Dark, it was raining ............... and sometimes thisngs do go wrong .

And about Road Block ...... i have seen many Check Posts .......... all kind and Size ......... well thats what you get if you live in a terrorost prone area ............. and i have missed those Surprice Check post quite a few Times ..... ;) :?

The shootings confirmed what for many Iraqis is a daily reality -- that U.S. forces are too quick to open fire and often kill innocent civilians in their efforts to crack down on insurgents, who killed at least 23 people in fresh attacks.

The U.S. military says it does all it can to minimise the risk of Iraqis and foreign civilians being killed.

The Bulgarian soldier was killed in southern Iraq on Friday, around the same time that U.S. forces in Baghdad opened fire on a vehicle taking kidnapped Italian journalist Giuliana Sgrena to the airport shortly after her captors freed her.

Sgrena was wounded in the shoulder and secret agent Nicola Calipari, who played a key role in her release, was killed. Italy laid on an state funeral in Rome on Monday for Calipari.

Bulgarian Defense Minister Nikolai Svinarov said an investigation into the death of the Bulgarian soldier showed he had probably been accidentally killed by American troops.

"Someone started shooting at our patrol from the west, and in the same direction, 150 meters (yards) away, there was a unit from the U.S. army," he told a news conference.

Spource
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Peace
-=SF-13=-
 
Here's all I'm saying, it was an accident, things like that tend to happen in war. Who'se fault it was for the accident is relatively unimportant compared to the rediculous allegation that it was a targeted assasination. Really? You think if we wanted to knock off a civilian we'd do it with regular infantry grunts who can leave the army in 6 months, write a tell-all book and make millions? Really, is that it?
 
Swordfish, you're talking about checkpoints that I assume are somewhere near India? And not manned by American forces? So your comparison doesn't hold water.

It was an unfortunate event. Nothing more. Her allegations are actually hurting her "cause" because they make her seem ludicrous and a liar. You're against American involvement in Iraq? Fine, but use facts and if you can't use facts at least make your story believable. Nobody's believing that woman besides those who wish to believe anything so long as it's anti-US.
 
SwordFish_13 said:
Whether Anybody has ever Implemented True Marxism is open for debate.

Peace
-=SF-13=-
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I told you, it failed before it even got there and that same thing happened in EVERY situation. The same failure every time. That should tell u something.
 
13th_redneck, one more off-topic post here and you will be at least temporarily banned.



Like Charge_7 said, if this woman was being deliberately targetted, she would not have had the opportunity to tell any of these tall tales at all, and her claims to the contrary are not helping her credibility at all. And Swordfish, I don't care what condition you are in, two 67 ton M1s can't exactly hide behind a flower pot, there is absolutely no way that such a checkpoint would not have been seen. Another issue there is the so-called "rain of fire," coming from the tanks which apparently only killed one man in this vehicle, were it deliberate, there would have been no vehicle left.

it's impossible to shoot a car on a road to the airport without giving any signal, any stop or any check.
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I'm not sure how her position here differs from our own. :roll:
 
Hi,

Ok Charge_7 Lets first make sure what we are debating here .

First If you read My previous Posts .

1. I never said that She might had been delibrately targeted ........ throw it outa the box.

2. It was a Accident ........... BUT i said one of the Both sides or Both Sides Might be at fault ......... I would not Blindly take the Current statement until atleast the Investagiation is complete.

3. The News Articles i Post Does not necessarily Represent My openion or Sentiments . THEY are news Articles

Why are we Preassuming that US Solders can't be at Fault ........... Accedent; Sure it might have not been Intentional..

Even before many Solders have been killed by Friendly fire .?



You were there then? Yeah so easy to miss. We shoot everybody who comes near those right? Puulleeaassee.
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I too can get Scarsastic ;) They Push the Gas whenever they see a US solders Waving at them :D

two 67 ton M1s can't exactly hide behind a flower pot, there is absolutely no way that such a checkpoint would not have been seen
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Night , Raining and a Ticket to Freedom waiting at the Airport ........ Still ?

Form some distance it might not be visible ... until you get close to it ...... and yes i am specaluting here same way you are we both were not present at that time . :)

Mr Fini said the vehicle carrying the released hostage and agents was well-lit to facilitate checks.

However, it stopped after a powerful light was shone on it from the roadside and the shooting began immediately, without warning, he said.
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~*~*~*~*~*~*~**~*~*~**~*~*

Source:BBC News

Italy's foreign minister has demanded the US "identify and punish" those responsible for the death of an Italian intelligence agent in Iraq.

Gianfranco Fini said the US and Italy had different versions of what happened to Nicola Calipari, who died under US fire while escorting a freed hostage.

The US says shots were fired because the vehicle was speeding and did not heed troops' warnings for it to stop.

But Mr Fini said the car was travelling at no more than 40km per hour.

Calipari had also made "all the necessary contacts" with US and Italian officials about the hostage's release and the journey to the airport, he added.

The incident has intensified the already strong Italian opposition to the country's military presence in Iraq and put intense pressure on Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi's government to find answers.

The BBC's Tamsin Smith in Rome says Mr Fini's comments, which have pre-empted an investigation into the incident, were very much for domestic consumption.

Political observers in Rome say there is a serious problem of jurisdiction in any attempt to bring criminal proceedings, as the shooting took place in an area under US military control in a third country.

Calipari has become a national hero in Italy, and thousands came out onto the streets on Monday to applaud the funeral cortege.

'Truth and justice'

Mr Fini said the vehicle carrying the released hostage and agents was well-lit to facilitate checks.

However, it stopped after a powerful light was shone on it from the roadside and the shooting began immediately, without warning, he said

A volley of shots from automatic weapons followed, lasting 10-15 seconds, the foreign minister added.

The occupants of the vehicle were only identified by a second agent who was pulled from the car alive, he said.

Mr Fini did, however, reject the allegation made by freed hostage Giuliana Sgrena that the car was deliberately targeted as "groundless".

"We ask for truth and justice," he said. "We hope that within the next few hours this affirmed wish for loyal co-operation will yield its first major concrete result."

"We hope that this is not an opportunity to whip up political campaigns and to sow anti-American sentiment in public opinion, which certainly have no reason to exist."

Tuesday's Washington Times newspaper quoted a Pentagon memo as saying the Italian security forces appeared to have made no prior arrangement for Ms Sgrena's transfer to the airport.

It added that US troops are trained to fire on erratic speeding vehicles, a description which corresponds to the US version of events.

"This is war," the memo was quoted as saying. "About 500 American service members have been killed by hostile fire while operating on Iraqi streets and highways."
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Peace
-=SF-13=-
 
Okay since it seems we're at an impass regarding the above how about this: you're traveling at night through a war zone. How smart was it not to even _try_ to coordinate your movements with the occupation force? A phonecall could've prevented the whole thing.
 
Hi,

How smart was it not to even _try_ to coordinate your movements with the occupation force? A phonecall could've prevented the whole thing.
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Charge_7 That's exactly what the Italian Foreign Minister is Babbling about ......... they did that ........ thats why the Italians are Up in Arms ........ According to Him all necessary Contats were made and US Solders should have known they were Coming that road ............ that's exactly why the Left all the Lights on for the US partols to identify them .

Here is what the Italy's Foreign Minister has to say :

Source : Reuters

Fini Tuesday gave a long account of Calipari's fatal mission to Baghdad but made no mention of any ransom. He said Rome had never considered a military swoop to free Sgrena for fear such an operation would endanger her life.

He said Calipari arrived in Baghdad Friday afternoon after establishing contact with the kidnappers. He checked in with U.S. authorities at the airport before driving off with an Italian colleague to meet an Iraqi middleman.

The middleman took them to Sgrena, who was seated in the wreckage of a car, dressed in black robes and wearing a mask.

On the drive back to the airport, the Italians left the lights on in the car to help identify them to U.S. checkpoints.

As they neared the airport, the car slowed to about 40-km/h because the road was wet and because the driver had to make a sharp turning. Half way around the curve, a searchlight picked out the car and guns opened fire for 10-15 seconds, Fini said.

The intelligence officer who survived the attack was forced to kneel in the road until the soldiers realized who he was.

"Two young Americans approached our officer and, demoralized, repeatedly apologized for what had happened," Fini said.
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Peace
-=SF_13=-
 
That only says he checked in when he arrived. It doesn't say squat about him letting them know he was on his way back.
 
They should have made sure they joined an American escort vehicle or small convoy.
That's the only way to be really sure.
 
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