Europe's View of America now
Nathanromml
Active member
Yes? Hmm....I thought I gotta know how to read to read what I read from that article, you read me?
Mod edit: You don't want to be somewhat respectful around here, you'll find yourself gone very soon.
Mod edit: You don't want to be somewhat respectful around here, you'll find yourself gone very soon.
Last edited by a moderator:
All I wanted to say was that you are seeing arrogance and enmity where I can't seem to find them. And please don't expect me to be offended because you hate my country. To quote one of my favorite bands -
"Ich will, dass ihr mich hasst, denn eure Feindschaft macht mich stolz."
I want you to hate me, your enmity makes me proud.
"Ich will, dass ihr mich hasst, denn eure Feindschaft macht mich stolz."
I want you to hate me, your enmity makes me proud.
Nathanromml
Active member
(makes him proud)
Arrogant....^^^^ my middle name
You must have an envy issue lol, you can kiss my American a** RayManKiller3
Active member
I personally don't get much of this dislike between Europe and United States. I don't get why people think US is ignorant, just because they feel their country should come first always.
Can someone explain to me the reason for the discontent between Europe and America (not Afghanistan related of course).
Can someone explain to me the reason for the discontent between Europe and America (not Afghanistan related of course).
Micha
Active member
Böhse Onkelz :rock:
And not forgetting Die Toten Hosen & Die Ärzte and the biggest and best RAMMSTEIN!
Rockmusik solte in deutscher Sprache gesungen werden!
Last edited:
Micha
Active member
It is mostly about the policy the United States as a nation leads.
We here in Europe are rather good to distinguish between your presidents - and their very different policies.
Even in many European opinion polls, there is great variation in how Europeans see the United States and how they look at your president. And when asked whether the U.S. is a bigger threat to world peace than Korea, for example, it is reasonable to believe that the answer is heavily colored by who’s U.S. president right now.
There is an anti-Americanism in Europe that is far more unilateral, systematic and biased than the U.S. and Europe's common history warrants. It is trite but true that the U.S. saved the European democracies, both in the first, second and the Cold War. The U.S. of course did so in self-interest is obvious, but it does not affect U.S. policy less real or less vital to us.
There are basically three sources of European anti-Americanism that goes beyond disagreement on the current policy.
The first is psychological, and due to the dependence of the U.S., the Europeans throughout the cold war had in the U.S. But because the Europeans had reason to be grateful for American protection, we were not always. It's not fun to be dependent, even if the alternative is worse. This source of tension has decreasing importance now that the cold war is history.
The second form of anti-Americanism characterizes especially the larger European countries that were once great powers. There is still irritation and frustration now that the U.S. is a super power.
And then there is the ideological anti-Americanism. It is on both the political extremes (in Denmark we see it especially on the left) an unwillingness, indeed, sometimes almost a hatred of the United States, which is politically and culturally conditioned. You hate and fear it because it is free, capitalist, successful, materially and culturally popular (especially among 'ordinary people').
As shown, these sources of systematic anti-Americanism are either irrational or guided by premises belonging to the far right of the political divide. U.S. and Europe shared history can not justify a systematic European anti-Americanism - quite the contrary.
But if you take the world into account, the picture gets more complex. The United States has been a global superpower for more than half a century and a sometimes imperialist superpower, both in South and Central America and parts of Asia even further.
In East Africa and Asia the U.S. policy was long ruled by the confrontation with communism. But locally this strategic logic has led to plenty of mistakes and manipulations. How the CIA's involvement in Europe "almost" always was interested in democracy then the CIA and U.S. collaborators around the world at times has been far more problematic.
In short: As a Iranian, who remembers the coup against Mossadeq in 1953 or aid to the Shah's repression, it can not be written off as irrational or extremist. If you are a resident of El Salvador or Guatemala, it is because you remember US-backed coup and US-backed death squads from the 1950s to the 1980s and then it is understandable.
The U.S. plays a central role as a military power in war and as a mediator in troubled areas, including the Middle East. This role as "world policeman" is very controversial in Europe and some Europeans believe that international terrorism and the divide between the West and the Islamic world is because of American foreign policy.
Being the world's only superpower has its costs. One of them is being exposed to both warranted and unwarranted criticism.
Does it make sense
RayManKiller3
Active member
Thanks, that was a helpful summary of the groups of Europe. I haven't been able to watch news recently, so I am not all that up-to-date on things right now
A Can of Man
Je suis aware
Micha's explanation is an excellent summary of the traditional anti-American attitude in Europe.
The article explains a change in that trend.
Last year was the first year where not all of the H1B work visa slots were taken up and it wasn't just because of the lousy economy. Many foreign college graduates who in the past would have done almost anything to get a job in the United States are quite literaly not impressed enough to stay.
The article explains a change in that trend.
Last year was the first year where not all of the H1B work visa slots were taken up and it wasn't just because of the lousy economy. Many foreign college graduates who in the past would have done almost anything to get a job in the United States are quite literaly not impressed enough to stay.
Pffff.... where to start with this one? I reckon we are sick and tired of remarks like the one Sky placed. When ever an American is lost for words he or she will say: without us you'd all be speaking German.
If you are so content with your country (which everybody is entitled to) please stay there, don't come preaching over here. If you really want to do us a favour; retract that article about invading The Netherlands when an American ends up in the International Court of Justice. You call us your friend but you hold your dagger in the other hand. As soon as it doesn't suit you, you call in the military.
And for Raymankiller, if you are interested in my view on matters. Much of the discontent started when we found out that the US rarely took us seriously. When ever we'd say something it was usually discarted as being Eurocentric garbage or some other disdain excuse.... I have rarely seen a group of people who are so determined not to see the other side of a story. Pfff... I could go on for a while, but that would probably be seen as flaming... It goes rather deep, but you might have noticed that. Now it is up to you. How do you choose to react? Do you call me Euro-trash or will you think about what I am saying?
If you are so content with your country (which everybody is entitled to) please stay there, don't come preaching over here. If you really want to do us a favour; retract that article about invading The Netherlands when an American ends up in the International Court of Justice. You call us your friend but you hold your dagger in the other hand. As soon as it doesn't suit you, you call in the military.
And for Raymankiller, if you are interested in my view on matters. Much of the discontent started when we found out that the US rarely took us seriously. When ever we'd say something it was usually discarted as being Eurocentric garbage or some other disdain excuse.... I have rarely seen a group of people who are so determined not to see the other side of a story. Pfff... I could go on for a while, but that would probably be seen as flaming... It goes rather deep, but you might have noticed that. Now it is up to you. How do you choose to react? Do you call me Euro-trash or will you think about what I am saying?
A Can of Man
Je suis aware
Ted's not too far off on this.
They are quite legitimate grievances.
When you don't respect and listen to the other party, odds are they're not going to like you.
They are quite legitimate grievances.
When you don't respect and listen to the other party, odds are they're not going to like you.
Pffff.... where to start with this one? I reckon we are sick and tired of remarks like the one Sky placed.
QUOTE]
If my opinions and remarks bother you so much then dont read them
Micha
Active member
Pffff.... where to start with this one? I reckon we are sick and tired of remarks like the one Sky placed.
QUOTE]
If my opinions and remarks bother you so much then dont read them
That one is honest does not mean that you absolutely have to be every time. If you are always honest and say your opinions you could end up with no friends. Between us, it means nothing. But if the government does the same, then perhaps one day you will wake up to an attack on your country, and then it would be good to have some friends in the world.
Many of these understanding problems between the U.S. and Europe come from the fact that we do not have a common cultural history that are closely linked in the same way as the countries of Europe. Almost all events in European history have affected all countries in Europe, one way or another. USA is the new boy in the neighborhood. It is only after the First World War that America really became a factor in Europe. Because we know each other in Europe, it is quite normal that our leaders speak critically of other countries or heads of state. What we sometime forget is that you are the new boy in the class and the rest of us have been part of the class since first grade.
But the fun of it is that Americans love to complain about all the things that they find is wrong with America, but if I as an European says the same, then the reaction is; WTF. Do you hate America? And I've said the same thing as you. Your patriotism is something we do not quite understand here. Patriotism to a European smells of nationalism and with that, we have no positive experience. So even though we are very similar and can speak with each other in English, we don’t always speak the same language.
//Micha :wink:
Micha said:
Spot on!
And Sky, I hope you don't see my remarks a flaming, but it is just such a good example of what I mean.
1) Would you like me to skip posts posted in a thread, without knowing what it is about. You have said many things I agreed upon, so why would I want to skip all your posts.
2) Why do you automatically assume that I would hate you just because we disagree? It isn't black and white, there are many colors in between.
3) I got my PhD too with help of my government. What's there to deal with?
HokieMSG
Active member
One thing that everyone seems to be overlooking is the fact that each of us has a country we call home. We tend to overlook the faults of our home country and point out the faults of other countries. Bottom line is that in most cases each country is looking out for what it considers the best interests of its citizens. I think we can all agree that the USA is going to do what it thinks is best for its security and other countries can take issue with it, but it will not stop the USA from doing it.
Disagreement is one of the freedoms we have. Debate is good. Keep it up.
Disagreement is one of the freedoms we have. Debate is good. Keep it up.
A Can of Man
Je suis aware
I don't know if we do overlook the faults of our own country. If we did, we wouldn't be fighting about who and how the country should be run.
I guess it does feel different when an outsider says it though. I guess rather than being not critical about our own countries, we get defensive if a foreigner starts pointing it out.
Misha is by no means an America hater and Ted and I usually disagree but on this point they are very much on the right.
But in these situations America does walk in with the huge disadvantage of being the more powerful country. The more powerful you are, the easier it is to piss people off. Each thing a more powerful country does has a lot more effect than it realizes. North Korea can scream about Armageddon all they want but the overall effect is very low. America on the other hand need only ignore other countries and manage to piss off a lot of people.
That happend already...and "I will dare say", that while the USA has helped most countries around the world, most of them gave the USA their back thus, the war....
582712 said:
I disagree micha...1st of all I don't call everyone I meet "friends" friends are those whom you are "honest" with, and vise versa..I refuse to keep to myself on how, what, I think and feel just for the insecureness of not having friends..that's the last thing on my mind, if my friends cannot accept me for whom I am then clearly they are not my friends, dosent mean we cannot agree to disagree anyway...that title is earned
I dont assume...I relate and speak...and I clearly do not hate you Ted
Last edited:
Micha
Active member
That happend already...and "I will dare say", that while the USA has helped most countries around the world, most of them gave the USA their back thus, the war....
Exactly! That happend!
But Sky, the vast majority of countries did not turn their backs to you on 9 / 11 and even the majority of Muslim countries in the Middle East condemned the attack.
It may be that you have helped many countries, but if these countries do not perceive it as such; then it is a problem!
I disagree micha...1st of all I don't call everyone I meet "friends" friends are those whom you are "honest" with, and vise versa..I refuse to keep to myself on how, what, I think and feel just for the insecureness of not having friends..that's the last thing on my mind, if my friends cannot accept me for whom I am then clearly they are not my friends, dosent mean we cannot agree to disagree anyway...that title is earned
Friends in this context are to be defined as someone that has sympathy for you. If you have the attitude that I always say what I think and FU if you have a problem with it, then a potential friend becomes a potential enemy. It is not an attitude you as president of the United States should exercise towards one's "friends" in the world. George W. Bush’s statement "Over time it's going to be important for nations to know they will be held accountable for inactivity," and. "You're either with us or against us in the fight against terror." pissed a lot of Europeans off and was reflected in the support for the war against terrorism.
There's nothing wrong with patriotism. No, not as an American but as a European, indeed there is! Patriotism to a European is perceived as nationalism and nationalism is something which we believe belong specifically to the thirties and forties in Europe. But don’t misunderstand me now; I know that it is not the way you see it.
There are major cultural differences between us that we don’t think about in everyday life. And that's what makes it difficult to communicate across borders sometimes.
//Micha
Last edited: