European Missile Defense Plan Cancelled

[Chukpike]

Im not so sure, countries like Poland, Ukraine, Georgia, the Czech Republic, Romania and many others have very strong anti-Russian feelings. The only way Putin could maintain control is by considerable force, and I can tell you for a fact that Ukrania, Georgia, Polancd and the Czechs wouldnt surrender their freedoms without a fight. Besides even in Russia its generally accepted that invading countries for occupation purposes is unstylish.

As for the Missile Shield -Goodriddence. A Bloody White Elephant that

A) Reliabilty was deeply suspect -and I think the DOD inflated the already unimpressive results to disguise what a lemon the thing was.
B) Was poised against a threat that didnt actually exsist, only might exist in theory. And Frankly the theory is pretty weak.
C) Was useless against any other type of Nuclear threat like N.Korea
D) Needlessly prevoked the Russians, and made the Europeans nervous.
E) Was Uber-Expensive, and served to throw public cash at friends of the previous Administration.

Nicely outlined.
Now supply souces to support your points.

I understand their fear and hatred from 1945, but this isn't 1945 and the Red Army doesn't have 35 Million Troops at its disposal. The Russia from back then isn't the same as today. The Red Army back then was belligerant and would start world conflicts in order to push a communist agenda. This Red Army is simply paranoid and will fight if they are provoked.

Nobody is asking the poles and Czechs to surrender or make nice with the Russians, but provoking Russia isn't a good idea either. 2 years ago Georgia tried this and the results were very bad for Georgia. This Missile shield was certainly a provocation.

Also remember, it what I outlined before that relations with Russia wasnt the only reason why it got scraped. The system was unreliable, it cost too much, and it targeted a non-threat.

What you outlined before has not been properly supported, and sources were requested..
This is a second request for sources.

 

[A Can of Man]

It's pretty obvious you don't really care about the sources so there really isn't a point in providing you with one.
Also he has you on ignore.

 

[Chukpike]

It's pretty obvious you don't really care about the sources so there really isn't a point in providing you with one.
Also he has you on ignore.

Thanks, I will just report the post then and let the moderators enforce the rules on supplying sources when requested. Or they can change the rules if it has become a burden.

And I do want to see where he gets his information for points like this:
"Was Uber-Expensive, and served to throw public cash at friends of the previous Administration"
How much did it cost? Who were the administrations friends? He has opened up a lot of questions.

He just wants to make "twitter" posts with no real substance and make unfounded accusations.

It is time he puts up or shuts up.

 

[A Can of Man]

Fair enough, but he can't read your posts anyway so it's hard to hold him guilty for not responding to your source requests.

 

[George]

The missile shield was threatening global peace because the Russians would not tolerate it so close to them. Furthermore the threat to these countries from Russia isn't its ICBM capability, after all, why on earth would Russia want to Nuke Poland? There is absolutely no reason to do so, not when they have thousands of tanks and troops at their disposal, they could literally drive into Poland and the Missile Shield would have done absolutely nothing to prevent this.

Furthermore the missile shield is designed for limited ballistic missile launch from a rogue nation like Iran, perhaps a handful of launches. Under no circumstance could the system could coped with a full Missile release from a country like Russia which could have fired thousands of missiles.

Yup! The Russians wouldn't tolerate the system even though it was useless against a Russian attack on Poland with a huge tank army. So why were they opposed to something that would be ineffective against them? Perhaps it just verbal slapping around of lesser people that playground bullys do to get others intimidated.

 

[Chukpike]

Fair enough, but he can't read your posts anyway so it's hard to hold him guilty for not responding to your source requests.

Who's holding him guilty? I will just let the mods handle it. It is obvious you are in communication with him, as you know he has me on ignore. And that makes it equally obvious the he knows I have requested sources.

What really is the big deal about supplying intelligent supportive information for someones point of view?

Is it that people make things up and therefore can't support their statements?

 

[The Other Guy]

Truthfully I don't understand the Poles and Czechs reaction. The Missile shield was antagonizing the Russians, making those countries next to it less safe not more. The Russians are one of the most paranoid people on the planet. Putting military assets near their borders riles them them up, and it doesn't scare them one bit. The missile shield was threatening global peace because the Russians would not tolerate it so close to them. Furthermore the threat to these countries from Russia isn't its ICBM capability, after all, why on earth would Russia want to Nuke Poland? There is absolutely no reason to do so, not when they have thousands of tanks and troops at their disposal, they could literally drive into Poland and the Missile Shield would have done absolutely nothing to prevent this.

Furthermore the missile shield is designed for limited ballistic missile launch from a rogue nation like Iran, perhaps a handful of launches. Under no circumstance could the system could coped with a full Missile release from a country like Russia which could have fired thousands of missiles. The Poles and Czechs are under the false assumption that this program would have protected them from a Russian attack, it wouldn't have.

Which is I think their reaction is just anti-Russian hyperbole which as I said is very strong in that part of the world.

Does Putin was to extend influence outside of Russia? Of course he does. but he will use economics to do so not the military. Many reasons why, first he would have massive resistance from any country west of his borders, and the Armies of Poland and the Czech Republic are stronger than those of Georgia. Secondly many of those Nations like Poland and the Czech Republic
are members of NATO, any attack on them and Article 5 goes into effect. (any attack on a member is an attack on all members) and that would be WWIII, and we know Russia doesn't want that.

Lastly remember this is Russia not the Soviet Union. They do not have anywhere near the military capability to launch on attack as they once did.

Article 5 or not, the Poles don't trust the west to come to their aid after the joke of a response by the French and British to the German invasion of 1939, nor do the Czechs for being sold down the river by the same countries the year before. The main reason that these countries wanted these missiles was the increase in training, funding, and weapons for themselves, so that they can protect themselves in the event of an attack by anyone, be it Russia or Kookoostan. Plus, the placement of the missile shield would give the US an active interest in the area, and more likely to send troops to defend the countries in the event of such a ground attack as you mention.

 

[Chukpike]

Article 5 or not, the Poles don't trust the west to come to their aid after the joke of a response by the French and British to the German invasion of 1939, nor do the Czechs for being sold down the river by the same countries the year before. The main reason that these countries wanted these missiles was the increase in training, funding, and weapons for themselves, so that they can protect themselves in the event of an attack by anyone, be it Russia or Kookoostan. Plus, the placement of the missile shield would give the US an active interest in the area, and more likely to send troops to defend the countries in the event of such a ground attack as you mention.

I would agree that the whole thing is about spheres of influence.

Russia used to control the whole region as part of the Soviet Block.
These countries broke away as fast as they could with the end of the cold war.
Having been under Soviet domination for years most have no love for Russia.
This is now a Russia surrounded on the east by countries that don't like them much.
These countries are joining NATO as fast as the can. Further reducing Russian influence.

If Russia can make the west look weak, these smaller border countries may not be in such a hurry to align themselves with the west.

I don't think the missiles really scared Russia. It was the increased US encroachment on what Russia considers their back yard.

 

[A Can of Man]

Who's holding him guilty? I will just let the mods handle it. It is obvious you are in communication with him, as you know he has me on ignore. And that makes it equally obvious the he knows I have requested sources.

What really is the big deal about supplying intelligent supportive information for someones point of view?

Is it that people make things up and therefore can't support their statements?

No, I'm sure if you took a look you'd find something too but since folks like you are just prepared to disregard it no matter what, it's just a waste of our time.

And yes, Russia is nervous about the US playing around in the states that formerly served as Russia's buffer zones.
Which is why even with the missile plan disbanded, something else could have easily taken its place.

 

[The Other Guy]

I would agree that the whole thing is about spheres of influence.

Russia used to control the whole region as part of the Soviet Block.
These countries broke away as fast as they could with the end of the cold war.
Having been under Soviet domination for years most have no love for Russia.
This is now a Russia surrounded on the east by countries that don't like them much.
These countries are joining NATO as fast as the can. Further reducing Russian influence.

If Russia can make the west look weak, these smaller border countries may not be in such a hurry to align themselves with the west.

I don't think the missiles really scared Russia. It was the increased US encroachment on what Russia considers their back yard.

Exactly. The Russians used to want to be a world player, but as time has gone on, particularly in this decade, they just want to run their little group of satellites and keep to themselves, and they still consider these countries to be part of the east.

 

[03USMC]

Russia may not be the Soviet Union of old, however Putin is a product of the Soviet era in fact he's an uber Soviet of the KGB system. Really invading Georgia made little sense the pressure on the Ukraine makes little sense but I believe Putin yearns for the days when the Soviets were the biggest kid on this particular playground.

Despite Russias acceptance of a capitalist style economy they are still Russia. The eastern european countries, like Poland who by the way was sold out by the US in 45 when Truman recognized the goverment installed by Uncle Joe and kept mum on the disappearnce of Polish Army officers and civil officals to play nice with Stalin remember what it's like to live with Russian boot on thier neck.