Enlistment Questions

L

Lamm

Active member
Who plays more of a leader, an NCO or an Officer? I heard that leadership is among the NCO ranks an management is among the Officer ranks, with the exception of Infantry Officers....is all this true? I want to be a leader.

Here's my sitrep.....I talked to my recruiter the other day I'm going active duty ASAP after high school, which I will be finishing here in June. I'll be 17 then, and won't turn 18 until September 21st. My Dad won't sign my contract, my Mom will.
I was going to go to college and be in the USMCR during it (start college next september, for one term, and ship to boot camp next jan-feb, and start college again that next september)...but I found out I cannot switch from USMCR to active duty..its near impossible, plus I want to be a Marine, and an active duty Marine, now. So, I've decided college in the civilian world isn't for me. I do still want to obtain a Bachelor's degree in Law Enforcement.

So here's two routes my recruiter and I layed out for me, that we thought would work best for what I want and that would suit my desires.

Note: I originally wanted Infantry, but I know that being a grunt and trying to go to school at the same time is near impossible...if not impossible.

Route #1: Enlist for a two-year stint for Infantry, upon re-enlistment time, enlist for Engineers, hopefully combat engineer, or another MOS I'll want to be in, but that will allow me to go to school.

Route #2: Enlist for a four-year engineer contract or another MOS that will allow me to go to school, and hopefully get combat engineer, take a year off to mess around and learn my MOS, begin school.

My recruiter said this is possible, both of these, but that he recommends the second one, for a reason that escapes me now...I can't remember what the reason was....probably just incase Infantry is a critical MOS upon re-enlistment time and I can't make lat move to Engineers or whatever MOS I want.
I want to go Route #1 because I wanted Infantry orginally, but of course I know Infantry and school don't mix...so I atleast want some time as a grunt, for personal reasons. No, I'm not trying to be a hero.

I am going to talk to my Dad this weekend, I have before and it hasn't gotten far.
Any opinions, comments, advice.
Thanks for any and all help.
Lamm
 
Your first question is one that is argued the world over. Just who is the real leader, an NCO or an Officer???

The deckplate expertise resides in the NCO and the theoretical expertise resides with the Officer. To put it into closer perspective - the Officer decides 'what' needs to be done and the NCO decides 'how' to do it and generally 'who' to assign to the job/task.

If you were in the Navy, there is another dividing line - this comes about when you make E-7 (Chief Petty Officer). CPOs have been teaching very junior officers how to be officers since the very first Chief was created. The CPOs takes Junior Grade officers straight out of the academy and figuratively tuck them under their wings. Almost all of the necessary skills required by these juniors to rise in rank are imparted by these old salts (CPOs).

If a CPO were to report that a junior officer was not working out to the Commanding Officer, the very first thing that would happen is the officer in question would be probably be placed 'in hack' and the next thing could very well be his 'dismissal' from the Navy. At a minimum, his evaluation would be downchecked and his career would be all but over - with a downchecked record, further promotions will NOT be forthcoming.

THE NAVY IS THE ONLY SERVICE WHERE ONCE YOU MAKE E-7, YOU CAN NOT BE BUSTED TO A LOWER RANK VIA AN ARTICLE 15 (NON-JUDICIAL PUNISHMENT...NJP). THE ONLY WAY YOU CAN BE BUSTED, IS VIA A COURT MARTIAL.
 
Lamm said:
Who plays more of a leader, an NCO or an Officer? I heard that leadership is among the NCO ranks an management is among the Officer ranks, with the exception of Infantry Officers....is all this true? I want to be a leader.
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Both of them are leaders, or at least, should be. Being a leader has less to do with the rank on your shoulder and more to do with who you are, the characteristics you posses and how you use them, how you handle your responsibilities and how well you motivate your subordinates, etc. I've met some E-7s and up that couldn't lead a guy through a door frame, same with some officers. You can be an E-1 and still be a leader, it's all up to the individual.

As for college time, I don't know that infantry life and combat engieering are going to be that different in terms of training, field time, deployments, etc. They work pretty closely together.

If you want to go infantry, then I'd say go infantry. Regardless of what you do, you aren't going to be a traditional student, your courses will have to be balanced with your job. I know of plenty of guys that went to school and served in the infantry, it wasn't easy, but they did it. With the way courses are set up for mil now, it's easier than ever. Online and correspondence courses are a life saver.

I'm either deployed, TDY or off training 80% of the year on average and that's been my tempo for several years now. I've managed to get my BA and MA, so I know it is possible.

It might take you a little more than four years to get your degree, or it might not, but at least you will be doing something you really want to do.

I'd also maybe recommend rethinking a criminal justice degree, they are a dime a dozen these days, lots of people have them and they don't matter much outside a few communities. Look into different areas like Criminalistics, National Security, International Relations, Economics, Military History, etc. They might be a little harder to obtain than a CJ, but they'll serve you better down the road. That's just some unsolicited advice. If nothing else, at least find out what other courses of study are out there.

Good luck, I hope things work out for you. Remember, dont' let anyone pressure you into doing anything you don't want to do. It's your life.

 
Hey thanks for the advice, I appreciate it. I'll go for Infantry, and if I find that its hard to go college while a grunt, I'll see about a lat move. Deployments were another thing I was wondering about. If I'm deployed, I ain't goin' to school obviously.
As far as degrees, I'll look around, I was also considering Politcal Science, maybe a double major, with a minor or two. Do they have degrees offered in military history?
Again, thanks for the help Sir, I greatly appreciate it.
Lamm
 
Lamm said:
Hey thanks for the advice, I appreciate it. I'll go for Infantry, and if I find that its hard to go college while a grunt, I'll see about a lat move. Deployments were another thing I was wondering about. If I'm deployed, I ain't goin' to school obviously.
As far as degrees, I'll look around, I was also considering Politcal Science, maybe a double major, with a minor or two. Do they have degrees offered in military history?
Again, thanks for the help Sir, I greatly appreciate it.
Lamm
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They sure do, and you can even take courses while you are deployed now. Now, that's not to say you'll have the time to, but it is possible.

Have you ever looked at the American Military University? I haven't not taking any courses through them, but I know several guys that have/are and they have nothing but good things to say.

 
I took a look at the site...they offer a Bachelor's in Criminal Justice, Political Science, and Military History...so I'll be choosing from one of those..if not two of those ( since I might want Law Enforcement, incase I decide to leave the Corps and become a law enforcement agent). It seems good, its all over the internet, and I can go online, get all my assignments for the week and do them...I can do them while deployed. Also, I can chose from a 8 or 16 week program, depending on how much time I have and how intense I want it to be.
I'll have to see if the Corps deems this University as an accredited one, and see if they will pay for my classes.
Thanks for your continued help,
Lamm
 
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Lamm said:
I took a look at the site...they offer a Bachelor's in Criminal Justice, Political Science, and Military History...so I'll be choosing from one of those..if not two of those. It seems good, its all over the internet, and I can go online, get all my assignments for the week and do them...I can do them while deployed. Also, I can chose from a 8 or 16 week program, depending on how much time I have and how intense I want it to be.
I'll have to see if the Corps deems this University as an accredited one, and see if they will pay for my classes.
Thanks for your continued help,
Lamm
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It is good to go with TA, every branch will pay for it. So you're set whenever you're ready if you choose to go that route.
 
Sounds great, what do you think would be better/more efficient? Going to AMU or to a school on whatever base I'm at?
Lamm
 
Lamm said:
Sounds great, what do you think would be better/more efficient? Going to AMU or to a school on whatever base I'm at?
Lamm
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Just depends on what you want. I personally like the internet courses, it gives a little more room for maneuver and allows you to study and learn at your own pace, be it fast or slow. So "better" is subjective in that respect, because it's a personal choice.

What is more efficient? I would say the online courses are hands down.
 
Roger that, given I want Infantry, in your own opinion, how long do you think it'd take me to earn a Bachelor's?
And those online courses are like regular ol' colleges, right? As in, I can get a minor or two if I want, or a double major...etc?
Thanks again,
Lamm
 
Lamm said:
Roger that, given I want Infantry, in your own opinion, how long do you think it'd take me to earn a Bachelor's?
And those online courses are like regular ol' colleges, right? As in, I can get a minor or two if I want, or a double major...etc?
Thanks again,
Lamm
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Well, you probably won't have time to take a full course load, especially to start, so a lot will depend on a) your major b) what type of computer access you'll have on average c) how well you manage your time and the kicker d) your job and the military. There are so many different things that could happen, it's hard to say. I've seen it done in three years, but I would put the average closer to five or so. With the online degree programs becoming more prevalent, things are going a lot more smoothly.

The thing is, if you really want something, you'll find a way to get it done.

Most programs will let you minor/double major, you'd have to check to be sure. A lot of that depends on how you set your courses up, too. I would focus on getting one useful degree to start, you'll have plenty of time to go back and pad your education later.
 
PJ24 said:
Have you ever looked at the American Military University? I haven't not taking any courses through them, but I know several guys that have/are and they have nothing but good things to say.
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Problem with AMU is that while the courses are great you will have trouble transfering them to another school. Myself and a few other Marines had this probelm back in 2003. Things may have changed since then.

I suggest go though Universty of Pheonix Online, the only problem with this school is that you have to be online a 4 out of seven days a waeek and make substatial(sp) postings in order to be "particpating".

This means UOP is not that great for Marines who go to the feild a lot, which as grunt/enginner you would.

Next....

If you want to go into Combat Enginneers you will have to sign up for the "Infantry support option". This could mean they could put you in Tank's, AAV's Artillery, or CE's.

I know this because that is the very contract I signed up on (I wanted Tanks but ended up being an AAV crewman). So read the fine print.

Next peice of advice....

If you goal is collage, don't go into a combat MOS, odds are as a Marine if/when you get deployed to Iraq you WILL be forward deployed (well isn't just about everone?) .

SO, take the ASVAB and try to get a tech/support type job (Air wing, Logistics, Admin etc). Not only will you have skills that more usefull upon completing your enlistment, but you have abetter likllyhood of having time to go to school.

Last.....
The USMC has what are called MCI's you can use these to fill up a lot of your lower level (1st two years) elective credits. Find out which of these give college credit (boot camp will give you 4) and do them. This way you can concentrate on your "core courses" (english, History, Math, etc) instead of elective courses.
 
jedi078 said:
Problem with AMU is that while the courses are great you will have trouble transfering them to another school. Myself and a few other Marines had this probelm back in 2003. Things may have changed since then.

I suggest go though University of Phoenix Online, the only problem with this school is that you have to be online a 4 out of seven days a waeek and make substatial(sp) postings in order to be "particpating".

This means UOP is not that great for Marines who go to the feild a lot, which as grunt/enginner you would.
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AMU is about to receive their national accreditation (they were in the process of applying for it back in '03), so that won't be a problem very soon.

University of Phoenix Online is very expensive, more expensive than most schools that have online programs now. Many of their credits do not transfer to other universities either. I started there, and realized it would be a complete waste of time and money. I could just as easily attend LSU, MSU, BC and a ton of other well known universities online, pay far less and my credits would transfer to almost anywhere.

There are a ton of Universities that have online programs now, but they aren't as advertised as UofP.


If you want to go into Combat Enginneers you will have to sign up for the "Infantry support option". This could mean they could put you in Tank's, AAV's Artillery, or CE's.

I know this because that is the very contract I signed up on (I wanted Tanks but ended up being an AAV crewman). So read the fine print.
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This question is for my own edification, but doesn't the Marine Corps guarantee the occupational field? So if he signed for the 1300 field, wouldn't he be up for any one of these jobs and no other?

http://usmilitary.about.com/od/enlistedjo2/a/13.htm

If you goal is collage, don't go into a combat MOS, odds are as a Marine if/when you get deployed to Iraq you WILL be forward deployed (well isn't just about everone?) .

SO, take the ASVAB and try to get a tech/support type job (Air wing, Logistics, Admin etc). Not only will you have skills that more usefull upon completing your enlistment, but you have abetter likllyhood of having time to go to school.
Click to expand...

I'm in combat arms as well as under a few of those squirrelly commands. A ton of our guys find time to go to college despite being deployed (yes, forward) and TDY (often to less than stellar places) most of the year. Certainly it is more difficult, and you can't take the course load some of the support guys can, but it is very possible. Sort of like the old cliche "where there is a will, there is a way." You just have to be realistic about it and realize you're in the military, the mission comes first, everything else second. So if there is a hiccup, and you have to put off school for a few months or so, you deal with it and pick it back up when you can.

The thing is, if your heart is really set on infantry, and you take a support job, most likely you're not going to be fulfilled. College is something you can always do, certain jobs in the military aren't.

I've seen far too many people in jobs they hate, stuck for 2, 3, 4 or more years.

The best thing to do is always go with what you feel is going to be better for you, long term, short term, do what is going to make you happy. The last thing you want is to look back on your life with regrets. It's all in what YOU want.
The USMC has what are called MCI's you can use these to fill up a lot of your lower level (1st two years) elective credits. Find out which of these give college credit (boot camp will give you 4) and do them. This way you can concentrate on your "core courses" (English, History, Math, etc) instead of elective courses.
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Good point, I forgot to bring that up. Depending on where you go to school, a lot of what you do counts as credits. I got a ton for all of my training.
 
PJ24 said:
This question is for my own edification, but doesn't the Marine Corps guarantee the occupational field? So if he signed for the 1300 field, wouldn't he be up for any one of these jobs and no other?
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From what I have been able to gather and the way I understand it, the USMC goes with “options” for two reasons:

1) When you get out of Boot camp and go to MCT then go to MOS school you may have missed your “school” window due to an injury or going on recruiter’s assistance. Then again you could be on recruiter’s assistance in order to catch your schools window.
2) Schools don’t necessarily run year round, and the Marine Corps does not want somebody waiting several months for their MOS school to open a class just because the contract states they have to go through a certain MOS school. The Marine would be doing working parties for months, painting rocks, which just plain sucks. The USMC is not going to want that Marine paint rocks for months; they want him/her to go through an MOS school and be part of the Fleet Marine Corps.


Hopefully someone who is or has been a USMC recruiter can speak up and correct me, if I am wrong.

Also, no offense to recruiters but there job is to get men and weapon to go to boot camp, it’s like making a sale and some will “make the sale” any way they can.
 
Out of curiosity, what's preventing you (Lamm) from applying to the Naval Academy or a college with Navy ROTC (other than the fact that you're behind the curve deadline-wise for Fall 2006 entry) as a Marine midshipman? Theoretically, you'd have the best of both worlds: going to college full-time on the Marines' dime, and then going on full-time active duty as an officer when you're done with school.
 
AJ has a good point.

Also, MCIs are a good way to fill lower level college credits. I ran into the same problem with Colorado Tech University Online. Come to find out half or so of my credits would not be transferable. Had to spend a few nights a week attending a lecture "chat" etc and it just got to be a pain. So I disenrolled and now owe them $800 for materials. Better than the 25k a year I would have had to pay for a degree that would not have been much better than useless.

As for the MOS, I know of many Marines in the "supply/support" side that stayed a month or so on "camp guard" waiting on a class to start because the classes were overbooked.

Best bet is find what you want to do and do not take no for an answer. I would suggest you find a job that has a corresponding field in the civilian world just in case.

If you want to play the system a little wait until Oct 1. That starts the new year for job openings and many more jobs will have an open field and you can pick and choose alot easier.
 
Well, If you want to take up the Scholarship, you must consider VERY CAREFULLY first! You don't want to risk paying them a huge penalty sum!
 
In my unit (Republic of Korea Marine Corps NBC Support) the boss is the Sergeant Major. The Captain... everyone hates him and he's just decoration. The gunnery sergeants and the Sergeant Major run the unit.
 
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