Elections in France -This Sunday

mmarsh

mmarsh

Active member
I though some people back home might be curious about what is going on here. Presidential Election day is this Sunday. This is only the first round (the 2nd his 2 weeks later). Basically there are about 12 candidates ranging from The Far right, to the hunting and fishing party, the aristocrats, to the Communists, the Greens, and the Trotskist Left.

The 4 candidates that have any chance of winning are

Nicholas Sarkozy -A Center Right Candidate. In US terms, he would be considered a Moderate Republican or Conservative Democrat. Think Rudy Guiliani, a man 'Sarko' greatly admires.

Segolene Royal. -The first woman candidate, she would be considered a Liberal. the odd thing is she and Sarko do share many ideas, their platforms are not terrible different.

Francois Beyrou -A right wing candidate with a centrist ideology.

Jean-Marie LePen -A Far Right Conservative who is basically anti-everything. Anti-immigration, anti-Muslim, anti-isreal, anti-EU, anti-NATO, anti-UN, etc. A David Duke meets James Inhofe.

The man I think most of you will find of interest is Sarkozy. 'Sarko' makes no secret of his admiration of the USA. So much so that some people worry if the 'French Identity' might be lost.

Although the election is close, Sarko looks like he's going to win, barring a election-day surprise. This article from the Post today is pretty accurate:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...04/18/AR2007041802245.html?hpid=moreheadlines

Anybody have any thoughts?
 
Well, I hope hat France pulls their heads out of their collectives arses. I'm not saying that France should be kissing the arse of the USA. France needs to stop with it's massive immigration program. The Muslim Riots were because of that. Also I would rather have a France that is friendly to the USA. As I said, France does not need to be our ***** but it should be one of our allies.

France is trying to be a modern western government with an elected system of officals that act as the collect voices of the people right? Well, France going the way it is isn't going to be that. This Sarko guy likes the USA, good for him. May he uses the USA as an example of how to run a country.

In my opinion. I believe that France should cut the bull crap, stop being friendly with Iran and Red China, and lastly, get back to being a friend of the USA. Because in the end, if they don't they're going to fall under the rule of Islamofascism.
 
5.56

You made a couple of interesting points...

France is one of America's allies. France and the USA agree much more than they disagree. However France is not an ally like the UK, it has always had a rebellious streak and it will never take orders from anybody. So your right about the "*****" comment, that just isn't going to happen. I think both countries need to make certain behavior changes in order to improve relations further. The French need to be better at swallowing their pride, and the USA needs to understand that heavy-handed treatment will not work, the French wont tolerate it.

As one American journalist put it, French-USA relations can be described as "40 years of marriage counseling".

American Republicans are going to love Sarkozy. A French nationalist who believes in "France for the French". He believes in tough measures against Crime, and Immigration. hes pro-business, and low taxes. He is also very pro-defense and believes in military cooperation with the USA against Islamic Terrorism. He has also called for punitive economic measures against China.

Your mistaken about Iran. The French have very bad ties with Iran. Just last year Jacques Chirac threatened to NUKE THEM if they ever used terrorism against France. Iran prefers to deal with China and Russia. Iran is one of the main reasons Sarko wants to vastly increase military spending.

Chinese-French relations are not so good either. Like the US, the French are very angry about Chinese trade practices, its poor record on Human rights and its interference on the world stage (like with Iran).

But more to the point, the French in the past 3 years have caught Chinese Spies that were stealing economic secrets. They posed as students working as Interns, but in reality they were Chinese intelligence operatives.

You might have heard about the new Chinese car industry -guess where they "borrowed" the technology. It was from a French company called Valeo.
 
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I have seen a few thing from Royal, I understand she was the front runner for the longest time but recently Sarkozy has been catching up.

Also mmarsh if you wouldn't mind sharing, who are you pulling for and why. Maybe you can give us some insight into an important election in one of our major allies.
 
Rabs said:
I have seen a few thing from Royal, I understand she was the front runner for the longest time but recently Sarkozy has been catching up.

Also mmarsh if you wouldn't mind sharing, who are you pulling for and why. Maybe you can give us some insight into an important election in one of our major allies.
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Technically I could vote, but doing so might cause me problems with the US Government (which is more important to me) so I will just watch.

Royal was winning very early because she is an attractive women that we got to we see in a bikini. This created a media sensation, but then she made a terrible mistake: She opened her mouth. Then came a series of mistakes and gaffes and with it the very distinct impression that she has no idea what she's doing.

Amongst them

One of her more insightful ideas was to create a law that required everybody to have a French flag and that they were to come out and wave it on Bastille day (July 14). Exactly like the Nazis...

Then she angered her own supporters by taking a much more right-wing position on issues such as the 35H workweek and immigration (though she is right on these issues).

Then finally came her 100 point proposal which not only was a extreme-leftwing position, and was very reminencent of a propasal given by Francois Mitterrand. -Another PR disaster.

I'll be supporting Sarkozy. My reasons why

1. Crackdown on Islamic groups, especially those who are not French but come to France to cause trouble (like the riots). He has promised to 'cut Islamic foreign interest groups'.

2. Crime Crackdown. What happened last year was evident of how bad things have gotton. Then there was another incident at the Gare de Nord which resulted in a riot.

3. The end of the 35H work week. Nobody likes losing an extra 4 weeks vacation (on top of 5). But the system is killing the economy. I am sure the labour unions will make a fuss...

4. Better relations with the US. France doesn't have to be Bush's poodle (hes got Blair for that) but Chirac's habit of preaching to the US (even when Chirac was right and the US wrong) was not in the French interest.

5. Increase military spending. Sarko realizes the danger posed by radical Islam and of rogue nations like Iran.

6. (Like the USA) High Tariffs against Chinese imports for it unfair trade policies

7. Tax Breaks to business. This is what causes the high unemployment rates. There are no jobs because taxes are too high on new business. So business owners set up shop in places like the UK where taxes are low. Thats why their economy is great and ours, well...
 
If the French general dislike of the United States of America is half as bad as the Americans general dislike France then Sarkozy in my opinion wont have a chance.
 
Gator said:
If the French general dislike of the United States of America is half as bad as the Americans general dislike France then Sarkozy in my opinion wont have a chance.
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The French dislike of America only extends to its foreign policy and of the current Administration. It has nothing to do with the dislike of its people, of its culture, etc. There were over 700,000 French visitors last year to the USA alone.

As for the reverse, I think many Americans have changed their minds about France. Its true there was a disagreement about Iraq, but Washington and Paris have agreed on other things (like Iran).

I don't think Sarkozy is going to become another George Bush, but he might pull France into a new direction, which is better than the status quo. I am afraid the other candidates like Royal simply don't have the courage to make the drastic reforms that are needed.
 
My bet would be:
First round: Le Pen and Sarkozy. Second round: Sarkozy.

Majority will choose him cause he is less "bad" then our xenofobic friend Le Pen. Then again LePen has Brigit Bardot as girl-friend and that would make one hell of a First Lady!
 
1. Crackdown on Islamic groups, especially those who are not French but come to France to cause trouble (like the riots). He has promised to 'cut Islamic foreign interest groups'.

We are living in the same country ? he created confessional organization that's true, but what else about it ?

2. Crime Crackdown. What happened last year was evident of how bad things have gotton. Then there was another incident at the Gare de Nord which resulted in a riot.

No that's wrong ! Violence against persons raised during his presence in the interior minister ! The other fields of violence decreased, only because the police received orders to diminue the numbers of complains, by transforming them in a 'main courante'. Sarko is not a wizard, but a lier.



3. The end of the 35H work week. Nobody likes losing an extra 4 weeks vacation (on top of 5). But the system is killing the economy. I am sure the labour unions will make a fuss...

False. That was already the same argument the right wing used in the 30's to convince people that job time reducing is a failure. It's a habit by them. So what ? How many hours per week shall we work ? And we can going on ąnd say the social insurance is an econmic nonsense... and so and so

4. Better relations with the US. France doesn't have to be Bush's poodle (hes got Blair for that) but Chirac's habit of preaching to the US (even when Chirac was right and the US wrong) was not in the French interest.

We are at war ??? We are american's allie, are participating in the war on terrorism. We had and have differents views about the iraqi problem, that's all. What do you want more ?

5. Increase military spending. Sarko realizes the danger posed by radical Islam and of rogue nations like Iran.

No. He wants to keep it stable. Not more.


6. (Like the USA) High Tariffs against Chinese imports for it unfair trade policies

Yes good point ! But do wou realize that this kind of stuff is EU responability ? The Eu want a free trade (by ideology), so we have to get rid of the Maastricht Treaty to achieve this good measure, and Sarko does not want that.


7. Tax Breaks to business. This is what causes the high unemployment rates. There are no jobs because taxes are too high on new business. So business owners set up shop in places like the UK where taxes are low. Thats why their economy is great and ours, well...

Pure ideology. The scandinavian countries have higher taxes than France and however they have strong economies... And concerning the UK... Their baby mortality rate is 20% than our, a lot of brits comes to France when they have health problems. So what's the anticated country ? Probably not where you believe...
 
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Pierrot

1. I stand by what I said, here is the quote from Sarko himself.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1173879238727

"cut off France's Islam from foreign influence, whether it is financing of places of worship or training of imams."

Cutting off foreign Islamic support, the exact what the British are doing right now.

2. The problems of violence occurred WAY BEFORE Sarko was in Office. I have no idea where you live, but I live in Paris the problem has always been there. There is much more violence then what you see on TV. Secondly you don't deal with CRIMINALS by letting them riot. They have grievances about unemployment, racism, whatever thats one thing, but when they turn to violence you must immediately use the strictest measures. Thats the ONLY way to reduce crime. I tell you from personal experience. When I was living in NYC, we had exactly the same problems Paris has now. It was by coming down in the strictest possible terms the crime went down.

3. The 35H week is a disaster. Ask yourself one question, since the law was enacted has unemployment been lowered? The Answer is very simple: No.
The private sector wants to be rid of it, its only certain unions that want to keep it. Which isn't surprising as they are some of the laziest people I have ever seen.

And its made employers more resistant to hiring new people.

The French live in this fantasy where they think they can work less and still compete against China and the USA. Just look at France compared to the rest of Europe, we are being left behind.

With the RTT, we get 9 weeks vacation (over 2 months), don't you think thats a bit much? (For the Anglos here, RTT is time you recuperate if you work more than 35H).

4. The French-America problems though minor, are deeper than Iraq. Since De Gaulle, The French have this annoying habit to patronize the Americans, and the Americans don't like it. Never have, never will. The French (and especially Chirac) go out of there way to block the US, as its their duty to check American influence.

Nobody appointed France ti that role. Just like Nobody appointed the USA to play world-police.

If the Americans want to do something really stupid (like attack Iraq) then let them do so on their own. Part of the bad relations in 2003 was due to Chirac-De Villepin inability to keep their arrogant mouths shut.

5. Military Spending. Yes, what I meant was keep Chirac's millitary spending increases. In other words, not reduce it.

7. What are you talking about? i am not talking about Heath care or infant mortality rates, I grant you France has got the best medical system in the world. I was talking about tax cuts for new Businesses.

Its not ideology, This is basic economics. Unemployment is regulated by job growth. In other words, new jobs that are being created. Because France suffers from high taxes, that limits of new businesses that open, and therefore limits new jobs.

Your also wrong about Scandinavia. I work for a Swedish company, the reason unemployment is low is because nobody ever leaves their job. Its like Japan, you join a company you stay at it until you retire. Its also nearly impossible to get fired, the social system is even more protected than it is in France.

As for Scandinavia their economies have been falling the past 2 decades it is nowhere near as powerful as it was in the 1970s. Look at the charts:

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/510

The best economy right now is IRELAND, and guess what very low taxes in Ireland thats why all the companies have their headquarters their. Dell, Intel, Compaq, HP, they are all in Ireland.
 
The 35H week is a disaster. Ask yourself one question, since the law was enacted has unemployment been lowered? The Answer is very simple: No.
The private sector wants to be rid of it, its only certain unions that want to keep it. Which isn't surprising as they are some of the laziest people I have ever seen.

And its made employers more resistant to hiring new people.

The French live in this fantasy where they think they can work less and still compete against China and the USA. Just look at France compared to the rest of Europe, we are being left behind.

With the RTT, we get 9 weeks vacation (over 2 months), don't you think thats a bit much? (For the Anglos here, RTT is time you recuperate if you work more than 35H).

During the Socialists' gov more than 500 000 jobs had been created. So YES, this measure created employement. Concerning the private sector, it is true that some bosses wnat to get rid of this law, but some companies the biggest one) has gone further : then are already at the 32h/week. I have mixed feelings about this measure, because this law concerns all the companies, not taking account the specificities of each company. But I do not understand there is such a lot of critics. The right wing gov achieved to weaken this law and the economic situation of France is not better.
And what's the the problem with the the time at work ? How can you compete with China ? Ig you want to be competitive against them, you habe to pay your employees with a bowl of rice... We have the best productivity of the world, we do not have to work more.

Part of the bad relations in 2003 was due to Chirac-De Villepin inability to keep their arrogant mouths shut.

Why shouldn't Chirac say something about it ? This problem was dicuted in the UN, ans we have the right to say our disagreement.

I was talking about tax cuts for new Businesses.

No the most important problem are the banks, which are really responsible for the difficulties a new company has to face... and also the administration...


Its not ideology, This is basic economics. Unemployment is regulated by job growth. In other words, new jobs that are being created. Because France suffers from high taxes, that limits of new businesses that open, and therefore limits new jobs.

Basic economics... yes there is a lack of new business, but they are nnot due to high taxes as I've just written. Excuse me for the lack of source, I'll provide you with it next week, I have to leave my job ;-) .

the reason unemployment is low is because nobody ever leaves their job. Its like Japan, you join a company you stay at it until you retire. Its also nearly impossible to get fired, the social system is even more protected than it is in France.

So you recognize that not only a neo liberal society with low taxes can provide a high employment rate... Thanks.

The best economy right now is IRELAND, and guess what very low taxes in Ireland thats why all the companies have their headquarters their. Dell, Intel, Compaq, HP, they are all in Ireland.

Yes tanks to the Eu subsidies.. There is no miracle. And concerning this point of view about the performance of one country, I do not only take account on pure economics data like the gdb, unemployement rate (after all the ways to determine it differs from the countries) and so. I also have a look to the purchase power, the quality of the infrastructures, the quality of the Health system, the private debt per habitant... When we are thinking about economy, we have to think global, and not only focuse on 2 or 3 figures. :p












 
Job Creation doesn't mean anything if it cannot keep up with demand. It doesn't matter if it was 500,000 or 2 Million jobs that were created, the issues is that it didn't keep up with the DEMAND FOR WORK which is why unemployment has been very high for the past 30 years. You can blame Chirac, if you want. But the Socialists haven't done any better on unemployment when they were in power. Francois Mitterrand was in power 14 years and unemployment rose sharply under his leadership.

I don't know which private sector you are referring, but I work for a multi-Billion dollar company at La Defense and i can tell 2 things for sure. 1) nobody in my company works 32H, most work 37H. and 2) we are in need of staff whom we CANNOT hire because its too expensive.

If France doesn't find someway to be more competitive on the Global Market working for a bowl of rice is exactly going to be our future. Most other countries have already modified their ethics on work. France hasnt thats way its economy is bad. Competing against China is already a challenge, thats exactly my point. Do you really think we have any chance of beating them by working less?

The French social entitlement programs espoused by the Socialists have wrecked the economy. There isn't a single country that has copied the French Social system for the very reason that its unsustainable, the French economy simply cannot afford it they way it is now. You either have to change it and make some sacrifices or you will lead the country to ruin within 15-20 years. Things that don't evolve die, its that simple. The French hate change, thats the real problem.

Yet everybody understands the problem except for the French left, whom as I said think you can get by in this world by doing less. As Sarko said on Wedsnesday, The world doesn't work that way.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2007/05/05/do0501.xml

The lack of new business has nothing to do with Banks. Its "les charges" (the taxes and fees you need to pay to open your business). Thats whats killing the economy. The Banks have no control on this. Frankly Banks in France are better than in most countries, its much easier to get a loan for example.

Will keeping taxes low automatically cure unemployment. No, you have to then encourage people to invest. But trying to get companies to invest is a evry difficult trick when you have high taxes. Why should they when the UK and Ireland are so cheap.

You miss the point, it wasn't what de Villepin said that was bad, it was how he said it. Like the Americans, the French have their own dirty laundry in the world stage. Although they were right about Iraq, they were in no position to give lectures to other nations from a position of moral superiority. It was both arrogant and stupid, Bush is a nasty and vindictive person. He does not like to be criticized. Sometimes it pays to keep your mouth shut.




Part of the bad relations in 2003 was due to Chirac-De Villepin inability to keep their arrogant mouths shut.

Why shouldn't Chirac say something about it ? This problem was dicuted in the UN, ans we have the right to say our disagreement.
No the most important problem are the banks, which are really responsible for the difficulties a new company has to face... and also the administration...

Your wrong about Ireland. Ireland did get subsides, but their chief reason their economy is strong is because they deregulated their market

"However, only since freeing other aspects of its economy by lowering taxes, decreasing regulation, maintaining low inflation, and providing a stable fiscal environment has Ireland been able to grow rapidly enough to surpass greater Europe's standard of living".

http://www.cato.org/dailys/04-21-03.html

Low taxes, decrease regulation, low inflation thats 3 things right there that France DOESN'T do. In fact its exactly the opposite. It has to change.
 
It was pretty decisive victory too 43-53% with 85% of the population voting.

5.56 Point of correction:

There are really no liberals or conservatives (as Americians know them) in France. If Sarkozy were American his views would be a that of a moderate democrat (except on economic affairs, where his views are more GOP aligned).
 
So I don't get this argument with the 35 hour work week, other than that the US media uses it every now and then to "show exactly how lazy" (Not my words, I would describe the French as many thing, but lazy isn't really one of them.) the French are. Is the problem that it needs to be increased to say... 40 hours a week like the rest of the western world or lowered even further because, um, are there any reasons to lower the work week?
 
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