....editting what u think about muslims... really important - Page 8




 
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Boots
 
January 17th, 2005  
Pogue Mahone
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SHERMAN
I dont know about Saudi Arabia, but there countrys that force the women to cover their face and hair(the Taliban in Afgaghanistan was one, and Iran 2, if im correct). as to the hand chopping practices, while they seem brutal to westerners(my self included), they are very effective, and the level of theaft in countrys that practice them is very low. one cannot dismiss the logic behind laws that have been aroung for 1400 years.
Its easy to know about Saudi Arabia - just check out some resources - MEMRI reports on ME Media quite extensively

In Saudi Arabia most women do cover their faces - women cannot vote or drive or do any number of other things

IN many ways Iran provides more freedom for women than Saudi Arabia

As for not questioning the efficacy of laws 1400 years old - I think I'll differ with you

I don't really want to see stoning and slavery brought back - and those penalties are even older

Please don't romanticize medieval brutality because "it works" - unless you think we should start a few public executions here

Its an interesting thread and I am always encouraged to see ANYONE with such faith and hope for the future -

That being said - this idea that some young muslims go to Aghanistan and get "brain washed" is yet another empty excuse

Of course they are influenced by fanatic islamo facist imams over there - but that sort of thing begins HERE ( and here may be the US or UK or anywhere else )

And on the subject of brain-washing - this idea that it is a good thing to force women to cover their faces because this reduces sexual crime by keeping the men from getting excited - do you have any idea how brain-washed one must be to follow that tortured line of thinking???

It would be like me living in Saudi Arabia and paying an extra tax for being an infidel - and rather than being upset by this - justifying it to myself by saying this helped keep things peaceful


I'm all in favor of looking at these issues - I think in fact these are vital things to discuss - but one really needs to try to be more honest about things on all sides

Most people, muslims and otherwise, are indeed nice and friendly

But to say that all of the issues peculiar to countries with muslim majority populations have nothing to do with Islam does not pass the test of scientific inquiry

Its ok if people choose to be ignorant about things - just understand you are making this choice
January 17th, 2005  
Pogue Mahone
 
Here's a link from MEMRI by an actual critic of Islam today in Egypt

http://memri.org/bin/latestnews.cgi?ID=SD84705

This is the kind of rational examination that is needed - not justifications for medieval laws and self-deluding explanations of why ones second class citizenship is actually for the best

I am gladdened that such men do exist in places like Egypt - they need our support - and what they don't need is for us to be afraid of saying these things from the safety and comfort of afar for fear of offending some mis-informed people ( muslim and otherwise ) - while they are literally risking their lives to say such things

( and we are not 100% safe either - it seems a Coptic Christian family from New Jersey was just ritually slaughtered by some fanatic muslims who objected to their views as expressed in an internet chat room )
January 17th, 2005  
SHERMAN
 
 
I suggest you ease up on your self-assurance. Im not ignorant, I have 2 years of Islam and Middle Eastern studies behind me, as a part of my high school education. Im an Israeli, so its hard to accuse me of being a great fan of the arab world. However, knowing many Arabs and muslims, and knowing a bit on Islam, I do believe that it's not any worse a religion than any other. The Crusaders did horrible things in the name of christianity, and the Jewish fanatics did horrible things in the name of their faith as well. Islam has it's nutcases just ike anyother great religion. Islam has some very good sides to it, and dismissing it as brainwash is completely unwise.
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Boots
January 17th, 2005  
USAFAUX2004
 
 
there has been a subject in my school about maturity. it says that you are not mature when the answer has a clear cut yes and no answer, but you are mature when there is a gray area for the answer. these days too many people have the clear cut answer. for ex. all chechens are not bad terrorists. most are not even involved in the war. they just want to live their lives
January 17th, 2005  
Whispering Death
 
 
Here's the deal with Americans and Muslims. The good muslims arn't doing themselves any favors by staying silent about terrorism but getting twisted and loud about things like the fox series "24".
January 18th, 2005  
Charge 7
 
 
I was very gratified to see your post here, Sherman. If one from your point of view can express such sentiments, it gives me greater hope that all peoples can find common ground. Not going to happen anytime soon of course, but as someone once said, "let it begin with me".

Whispering Death you are lumping a group by the actions of a few. The "good Muslims" are mostly keeping silent in order to not draw attention to themselves in a nation now polorized on Muslims. When my friend can't even go to the supermarket without somebody saying "Hey terrorist! Yeah you! I'm talking to you!" I can hardly blame them for keeping quiet. This doesn't happen all the time of course, but far more often than it should. Some people even talk about rounding all Muslims here up and putting them in camps. Did we learn nothing from WWII and what we did to the Japanese Americans? Intolerance breeds intolerance. We should be decrying the rogue sects most certainly, but not the religion as a whole.
January 18th, 2005  
USAFAUX2004
 
 
there are villages in israel that have jews, and muslims living together in peace
January 18th, 2005  
Whispering Death
 
 
All I'm saying is how the American public sees things. Sure you can argue me and make me say it is unfair, but regardless of whether it is just or not, it is the perception that deliniates whether someone wants to hug you or shoot you.

The perception is one of speculation because you NEVER see any prominent muslims going out and saying "These Al-Quaida killers must be delivered to American justice" but you do hear "don't racially profile, 24 is derogatory to muslims".

I tell you as history as my witness that if Muslims do not fall into step with their American breatheren then I am afriad I forsee some terrible injustices will befall them.
January 18th, 2005  
Charge 7
 
 
Ah yes, perception. I believe a man named Schicklegrubber was the master of that.
January 18th, 2005  
Pogue Mahone
 
[quote="Charge_7"]
Whispering Death you are lumping a group by the actions of a few. The "good Muslims" are mostly keeping silent in order to not draw attention to themselves in a nation now polorized on Muslims. When my friend can't even go to the supermarket without somebody saying "Hey terrorist! Yeah you! I'm talking to you!" I can hardly blame them for keeping quiet. This doesn't happen all the time of course, but far more often than it should.

Is that why the "good Muslims" are keeping quiet now? So why were they keeping quiet before 9-11? In 1993 they tried to blow up the WTC, in 1998 they bombed our embassies in Africa, in 2000 they bombed our ship off Yemen

Were these "good Muslims" keeping quiet all this time for the same reason?

Were people abusing your muslim friend in the supermarket then?

This "I can't blame them" stuff goes two ways. The continued silence by all the good Muslims earns them the unfortunate treatment you describe

I wish ignorant people wouldn't generalize in such ways - as much as I wish the good Muslims would take a stand





Some people even talk about rounding all Muslims here up and putting them in camps. Did we learn nothing from WWII and what we did to the Japanese Americans? Intolerance breeds intolerance. We should be decrying the rogue sects most certainly, but not the religion as a whole

Great - lets talk about the Japanese in WW2 - because iirc many joined the US army and went on to form the most decorated combat unit in the war - the 442nd regimental combat team ( Go for Broke! )

Where is its equal today?

Face the truth - the only organized muslim american activity we see is when "24" makes the terrorists muslims and they complain about this - or when suggestions for racial profiling are advanced to increase security

Sorry, but there has been one common factor in every major terrorist attack ( apart from OK City ) and that has been the young male muslim

Worrying about how this may offend some people won't change that


And I do wonder how you define Islam V "Rogue Sects"

Why is OBL part of a rogue sect? Because he does what you consider evil things? Do you know enough about Islam to know if OBL is following it correctly or not?

I would accept that he is part of a rogue sect, were it not for the fact that he has thousands of direct followers at least, and millions of supporters around the world ( I would guess those who actively support his methods and goals number at least in the 10's of millions if not more ) -

And if he is a rogue sect - how many rogue sects are there? The chechens, hamas, hezbollah....they are all rogue sects?

I don't pretend to have all the answers by any means - but I am smart enough to know that simply accepting things without critical review is not going to lead anywhere

Just because Islam is a religion it seems we cannot question it in detail

I put it to you - say I was to suggest that it wasn't Nazism that was the problem but rather a few "rogue groups" like the SS or Gestapo - what would you think of that?

( since someone else brought up Schikelgruber I suppose its ok to bring this up )

Would I be right about Nazism then - or would you say "but millions support that party and its ideology - maybe there is something inherently bad about it"

NO - Islam is not Nazism of course

But follow through the logic and you see what I mean