Dowding's Costly Blunder in the Battle of France

samneanderthal

Active member
At the outset of the Invasion of Holland, Belgium and France the Germans had overwhelming bomber superiority but had inferior numbers of fighter planes: 836 Bf 109s and 187 Bf-110 (1.023 fighters) against 62 Dutch, 81 Belgian, 261 British and 764 French fighters (1,168 fighters). However, most of the Allied fighters were inferior MS.406s, H-75s, Hurricanes with inferior two blade, two pitch propellers, Gladiators, Fokker D.XXIs and G1s, only 36 Dewoitine.520s, etc, because Hugh Dowding decided to keep hundreds of 3 blade Hurricanes and Spitfires in Britain.

Moreover, Dowding had to waste over 100 of his precious, best fighters based in Britain (including dozens of Spitfires) just to evacuate during operations Dynamo and Ariel, instead of using them when most needed, before and during Guderian's Sickle cut.

RAF bomber command sent mostly useless Fairey Battles, which were lost by the hundred without destroying a single objective (losing a crew of 3 with every plane). Inexplicably, the British used superior 3 blade propellers in the useless, doomed Battles for the same Merlin engine that the invaluable Hurricanes used with 2 blade props). Grounding the battles and installing their props in the Hurricanes would have helped considerably.

During the dismal performance of the obsolete allied air force, hundreds of bad planes and excellent pilots were lost, so that by the time of the BoB, Dowding was left with more of his excellent planes than he had pilots. Britain was only saved by Poles, Czechs, Norwegians, Dutchmen, Canadians, New Zealanders, South Africans, a few Frenchmen (most French pilots refused to fight for Britain out of anger for the British not sending to France their best planes, some going to Africa or preferring even to fight for the USSR much later in the war). These foreign pilots were not familiar with the British planes, yet fought wonderfully in the BoB. Most importantly, the loss of France deprived Britain of hundreds of inferior planes and excellent pilots and a huge army and navy.

Had Dowding sent to France 250 more Hurricanes (with 3 blade, variable pitch propellers), 200 Spitfires and Radar stations during the ample months of the Sitzkrieg, the expensive but clumsy Bf-110s would have been promptly dispatched and the Bf-109s would have suffered severe losses rapidly. Most importantly, the other, inferior allied fighters would have survived much longer and could have concentrated on shooting down hundreds of Stukas and other bombers, inflicting unacceptable losses on the LW and crippling ground support for the Blitzkrieg, greatly boosting the morale and strength of the allied army, which was completely demoralized by the almost unopposed Stukas, etc, Without ground support the very inferior German tanks (mostly Pz I and II) would have been wiped out, because they were very susceptible to the allied antitank artillery (even to the inexpensive Hotchkiss 25 mm gun) and the allied tank guns.

Moreover, had the Germans not dominated the air, the allied navy could have brought its formidable naval artillery to shell the wimpy German tanks near the coast, so that Guderian could not have gotten within 30 km of the coast.

Had France survived longer, there were many H-75s, P-40s, etc, on the way from the US that would have helped considerably as would the Dewoitine.520s, Spitfires, Hurricanes, French and British tanks coming out of production in ever increasing numbers, while German airplane and tank production was still very low.

As an example of how deficient the allied air force was, during the invasion the Germans caused the greatest traffic jam in European history, so they were extremely vulnerable to attack by allied planes, yet German air superiority saved the army. Otherwise, it would have been a much worse Highway of Death than the one in Desert Storm.
 
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We did not make blunder as the two bladed fighters were pretty standard around that time and the three bladed props were only just coming in from the US. Also there was a problem on airfield security as the aerodromes kept getting bounced by the German fighters and if we had moved every fighter from the RAF into France the result would have still been the same. Now instead of blaming the RAF for the fall of France you could be asking what the French airforce was doing during this time
 
Hi LeEnfield,
Even the Sworfish had 3 bladed props at this time and like I said, the useless Fairey battle. There were plenty of 3 blade Hurricanes and Spitfires in GB but Dowding decided to send his best pilots with the worst planes (he valued more the planes and the pilots!). If France was a lost cause, he should not have sent the invaluable pilots, but since he sent them he should have provided them with the best weapons.

The French and expeditionary air forces fought quite well, given their inferior planes. Had the best planes been there and more plots, Göring would have lost his 187 Bf-110s in weeks and hundreds of Bf-109s, which would have allowed the inferior planes to wipe out the slow STukas, He-111, Do-17s, etc, There was no shortage of excellent pilots and mediocre planes in France (including Polish pilots, etc,) to wipe out the bombers, there was just a desperate need for Spitsfires and Hurricanes to face the German fighters. Even with the Curtiss H-75 and the even worse MS.406, the French shot down a few Bf-109s.
Dowding made the most basic military mistake, he divided his forces and sent the weakest part to the slaughter while he left the largest number and the best planes in reserve. You either send everything to save Britain and France or don't send anything and leave them all to fight Germany alone. But you don´t sacrifice the best pilots with the worst planes.
 
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The aircraft were sent to France in Squadrons and there is no record of pilots being pulled from those Squadrons and posted else where. Now certain experience pilots would have been sent to form new Squadrons in the UK as aircraft came available. Yes the Swordfish had a three bladed propeller but I can't remember if it was of the variable pitch kind. Also the RAF had 600 fighter aircraft at this time the losses in France were huge, during the BoB many of the fighter pilots had just a few hours of flying time on Spitfires when they joined the squadrons which hardly made them experienced.
 
Thanks to the strategy of Dowding and Winston Churchill by withdrawing precious fighter planes from France. The Battle of Britain would have been lost.
 
Dowding was spot on, he knew the Battle of Britain was coming and couldn't afford to lose any of his latest fighters or pilots. It was a foregone conclusion that the Battle of France was lost.
 
It was not Churchill's Strategy, He took charge on the day France was invaded and wanted to send planes, but it was too late. There was no time to send in the mechanics, radar, train foreign pilots, etc,

Like I said, if Dowding knew that France was lost he should not have sent any planes. But France, Belgium and Holland were far from lost. The combination of the allied air force, army and navy was formidable. The problem is that the most valuable assets were kept in reserve, dooming the rest.
It's as if instead of sending Wellington to Waterloo, he had been kept in reserve, because his troops were too valuable and Napoleon could invade Britain if he were not available. Or as if Nelson were kept away from Trafalgar or Abukir, lest Britain be invaded. Britain always won because it used aggressively its best assets. Had Dowding sent in time the best planes and allowed the best Polish, French, Belgian and British pilots to use them, Hitler's Bf-110s, Bf-109s, Stukas, tin tanks, etc, would have been wiped out.

It is precisely my point that Dowding was left with excellent Spitfires and lousy pilots (the worst possible situation), because the good pilots were sacrificed flying mediocre planes or lost when France, Holland and Belgium capitulated.

The BoB was not won because of Dowding's strategy, but because of Göring's and Hitler's stupidity. Göring sent only small waves initially with disastrous consequences, allowing the few British pilots to defeat each small wave at a time thanks to Radar. Had he sent in 600 planes at a time from the beginning, he would have wiped out the Radar stations, planes, pilots quarters, aerodromes, etc, in a large enough area to invade. The RN could not have done much against German planes in the strait of Dover. Hitler then ordered bombing London, etc, in reprisal for the bombing of Berlin and wasted any oportunity of winning the BoB.
 
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It was not Churchill's Strategy, He took charge on the day France was invaded and wanted to send planes, but it was too late. There was no time so send in the mechanics, etc,

Like I said, if Dowding knew that France was lost he should not have sent any planes. But France, Belgium and Holland were far from lost. The combination of the allied air force, army and navy was formidable. The problem is that the most valuable assets were kept in reserve, dooming the rest.
It's as if instead of sending Wellington to Waterloo, he had been kept in reserve, because his troops were too valuable and Napoleon could invade Britain if he were not available. Or as if Nelson were kept away from Trafalgar or Abukir, lest Britain be invaded. Britain always won because it used aggressively its best assets. Had Dowding sent in time the best planes and allowed the best Polish, French, Belgian and British pilots to use them, Hitler's Bf-110s, Bf-109s, Stukas, tin tanks, etc, would have been wiped out.

It is precisely my point that Dowding was left with excellent Spitfires and lousy pilots (the worst possible situation), because the good pilots were sacrificed flying mediocre planes or lost when France and Belgium capitulated.

The BoB was not won because of Dowding's strategy, but because of Göring's and Hitler's stupidity. G¨ring sent only small waves initially with disastrous consequences, allowing the feww British pilots to defeat each small wave at a time thanks to Radar. Had he sent in 600 planes at a time from the beginning, he would have wiped out the Radar stations, planes, pilots quarters, aerodromes, etc, in a large enough area to invade. The RN could not have done much against German planes in the straight of Dover.

Even so it makes more sense for Britain to with hold its best in reserve as it would be to large a gamble. Even if successful in halting the Germans, then what? they would not be able to press on into Germany... And if they lost they the game would be over in one go. And the war would be lost.
 
Did Dowding's brilliant strategy factor in the number of Poles, Czechs, etc, that saved Britain? Had these men been tired of fightig a losing war, the BoB would have been lost, despite having excellent planes

How can it be a good strategy to waste a large number of pilots and mediocre planes so that the best planes have to fight alone, instead of using them all together? With the best pilots using the best planes and newer or less talented pilots the mediocre planes.

If France stayed in the war, Germany was bankrupt and could not fight a long war. It was Czech and Austrian resources that kept the German economy going, then Polish resources and then French, Dutch and Belgian resources. Moreover, Stalin was selling fuel, grain and metals to Hitler on credit, had Hitler´s invasion failed, then Stalin would not have continued financing a loser. Fighting against France, Belgium, Holland and Britain, with a very low production and limited resources would have driven German Generals to overthrow Hitler (many wanted to do it before the invasion of France, but changed their minds when France fell so rapidly).

Had the German invasion stalled, Mussolini would not have declared war on the allies and may have even joined them (Italy switched sides on WW I and joined the allies). With Germany busy in France, etc, Stalin would not only have stopped supplying Germany, but could have invaded the rest of Romania (he had invaded Bessarabia) and Poland, depriving Germany of their resources.
 
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Once again I think people are simply looking at numbers rather than an overall picture, one of the primary reasons France collapsed was that there was no stomach left in either France or Britain to fight another war, sure they had the numbers but no real heart for the fight until it became a life or death matter but by then it was too late for France (and would have been for Britain to had it not been for the channel).

As to whether more fighters should have been shipped to France I am not sure it would have been feasible given the logistical issues they had just supplying the BEF.
 
Contrary to stereotype, the French fought quite well. The gallant French troops, with heavy losses stalled the German offensive enough for the British to abandon France in Dunkirk. However, it is futile for infantry and artillery without planes to oppose a well coordinated army and air force.

If the British could send planes, mechanics, spares, etc, to India, Aden, Malta (over 1,500 km from Gibraltar or Alexandria), Africa, Singapore, Burma, Australia, Norway, Greece, etc, they should definitely have been able to send a few hundred planes, mechanics, etc, to nextdoor France during the long Phoney war.
 
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That the Battle of Britain was lost because of the stupidity of Goering and Hitler,is nonsens :the Germans lost the Battle of Britain,because Fighter Command was to strong,and the LW to weaken (because of the losses during the Battle of France).
But,of course,some people will refuse to face reality:that most battles were lost or won,because A was stronger than B.and not,because the stupidity of B .I should like to see an exemple of a battle that was lost because the stupidity of one of the opponents .
The fact also is
a)that Hitler was not engaged in the Battle of Britain,as he was in the Battle of France
b)that the German strategy during the BoB was quite defensible .
 
First of all we were producing more planes than we had pilots for, and if we had that many spare plane why were they not sent to Malta, North Africa, Burma and Malaya, let alone Australia, most of the stuff was out dated and easy pickings. One of the reasons that the Germans paused was a large counter attack by Matilda Mk 1 tanks, now these gave the Germans just a bit of scare as the German tanks could not knock them out nor could the British knock out German tanks. It was Rommel that first used the 88mm guns as anti tank weapons to stop the British Tanks in fact Rommel's No 2 was killed beside him during this attack. This caused the Germans to slow for a while while all their other forces caught up with them before driving on to the coast.
The problem was that the French had spent nearly all their defence budget on the Maginot line and there modern fighters were still in development and RAF was not equipped either with enough modern aircraft or the men to fly to them till 1941
 
About the battle of Arras:the Germans attacked with 60 Matilda I tanks,which could be penetrated by the 20 mm ATG,and only 16 Matilda II.
The attack was drived back by a combination of 20 mm,88 mm and 105 mm guns (I have seen no reports that German tanks were used).
The 7PD only had 4 88mm guns,and maybe 8 88mm Flak guns ,there also are no indications how many of those were committed at Arras .
Thus,IMHO,although the 88 mm was used at Arras,it is wrong to say that the Germans were saved at Arras by the 88 mm gun.
 
LeEnfield, precisely because there were more planes than experienced pilots were the French and Belgian and the experienced British pilots invaluable, so Dowding should not have left them to fight for their lives with 2 blade Hurricanes, Ms.406s, etc, against the LW hoardes.
It seems obvious to me that had there been 450 modern fighters to reinforce the 1,100 plus mediocre or obsolete fighters, the Germans would have lost an arm and a leg the first week of the invasion. Instead of causing panick inthe allied infantry, the German generals would have panicked from the plane losses, without which the Blitzkrieg was imposible.

You are right, the German tanks were vulnerable to the Matilda and the French tanks, whose armor they could not penetrate. The only thing that saved Guderian was the airplanes, which blasted a path and thwarted counter offensives and enemy supplies with the most intense and prolonged air support in history. The obsolete planes that provided this support would have been promptly wiped out by the mediocre allied fighters, had the latter been protected by Spits and 3 blade Hurries.
 
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Have you read Rommel's report on all of this. This was the only time that a massed attack by allied tanks took place during the 1940 battle for France. Now you keep on about the RAF should have sent more planes to France but as none of the Airfields were secure where do you think that they should have operated from. Also there was quite an amount of RAF fighter cover for Dunkirk but not so much over the breaches but further inland before the Germans got to the beaches. Now grew up through all of this and knew many of the people that took part in these conflicts, and I am not just commenting on what some author thought about the whole thing who also probably was not there.
You keep on going on about the two bladed prop on the on the Hurricane and Spitfire but when these planes first came out the props were made in the traditional way out of wood, but they soon found out during combat the stresses put on these wooden props caused them to break up. It was then they started to put on the all metal three bladed prop and by the time France was falling there would not have been enough to make much difference and many of these units were purchased from the US and were fitted during the lull before BoB started
 
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Yes I've read Rommel's report, I said Guderian, which was at the Front, not Rimmel who was protecting the line of supplies. I've also read a book by Saint Exupery whose bomber was sent to Arras to blast the German tanks and encountered German planes and was extremely lucky to excape. There were several tank encounters, in one of them a single French tank promptly blew up 12 German tanks. In another ocassion a whole french tank division was refueling when it was destroyed by German planes, etc,
The German tanks (mostly Pz I and II) were junk compared to the allied tanks, except that Guderian had installed radios in all his tanks and the allies relied on signals. Had the LW been mamed in the first week, the allies would have had time to install radios in their tanks and learnt the weaknesses of the very deficient German tanks.
 
Britain Lost an estimated 1393 planes between 10th May and 28th of June 1040 in France. This was the reason for Dowdings sensible strategy in withdrawing our fighters
To echo Winston Churchill's words.We will defend our Islands whatever the cost may be.
No matter how you twist the tale that is precisely what happened. The bravery shown by the R.A F pilots in 1940 gave the springboard for victory and freedom which we all enjoy today. All the pilots who took part in the Battle of Britain are held in high esteem in the British Isles today, tomorrow and always.
 
Hi Alan P,
I don't agree with your figure, which comes closer to allied, not British losses. Anyway most of the British losses during the German offensive were bombers (Battles, Wellingtons, etc,), Gladiators and Hurricanes with 2 blades. Only during the evacuation (once the battle was lost) did Britain lose good fighters.
I repeat, the problem is that Dowding did not send the good planes during the long Phoney war and allowed the best French, Polish and Belgian pilots to learn to fly them., so that they could be useful when the invasion began.
I repeat if Dowding knew that the battle was lost he should not have sacrificed his pilots with bad planes. Once he sent them, he had to provide them with the best, not the worst planes.
It's absurd and unconscionable to ask pilots to die fighting in a Gladiator, MS.406, Hurricane with 2 blades, etc, while the best planes are idle in England.
Churchills nonsense is extremely popular, the fact is that never in the history of the British empire were excellent men with excellent weapons led more incompetently. Far from the finest hour, Norway, France, Belgium, Greece and Africa were the darkest hours in British history. Rommel with ridiculous resources beat Ritchie with huge resorces in Gazala and could not be crushed after the two el Alamein battles, eventhough Auchinleck and Monty had huge forces available (in large part American equipment, fuel, etc,). Not only did the Americans have to send Churchill 31,000 million dollars in equipment and Stalin 11,000 million dollars, they also had to beat the Japanese and destroy the LW so Britain and the USSR could beat Germany.
 
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In 1939, several changes were made to the Hurricane. The powerplant was changed to the Merlin III driving a*de Havilland*or*Rotol*constant speed metal propeller. Ejector exhaust stacks were fitted for added thrust.

If any blame should be laid for the fall of Norway, France, Belgium, Greece and Africa, it should be laid firmly at the feet of consecutive British governments after WW1 cutting back the armed forces to a bare minimum, or in many cases below the bare minimum, and should not be laid at the feet of Churchill or Dowding.

Exactly the same was happening after WW2, during my time and for years afterwards, including today.

I repeat and will continue to repeat, Dowding made the right choice.
 
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