One problem even if they had planes on deck was the Battleships were approaching from upwind, would have reduced the distance even faster. Should have had scouts & CAP up.
Dowding's Costly Blunder in the Battle of France
samneanderthal
Active member
A lot of things were not done that could have saved the carrier:
1) Send a battleships and two heavy cruisers to escort it and finish off the German ships in the neighborhood. That was the point of having expensive 16" guns on battleships, which prevented smaller cruisers from approaching them, Heavy cruisers had 14" or 12 " guns that could have sunk the Scharnhorst and Gneisenau. That is in the traditional British aggressive tactics, you protect your assets at the same time that you finish off your enemy.
2) The Deck was crowded with Gladiators, Hurricanes, etc, that should have been jettisoned in order to allow the carrier's planes to fly reconnaissance, strafing, torpedo and bombing missions.
3) By flying adequate reconnaissance missions with float planes from the very many battleships, cruisers, etc, the navy should have known the location of all German ships so they could attack them or at least avoid them.
4) Britain had plenty of submarines at this time and they should have been deployed so as to protect British ships and sink as many German ships as possible and this was absolutely not done.
1) Send a battleships and two heavy cruisers to escort it and finish off the German ships in the neighborhood. That was the point of having expensive 16" guns on battleships, which prevented smaller cruisers from approaching them, Heavy cruisers had 14" or 12 " guns that could have sunk the Scharnhorst and Gneisenau. That is in the traditional British aggressive tactics, you protect your assets at the same time that you finish off your enemy.
2) The Deck was crowded with Gladiators, Hurricanes, etc, that should have been jettisoned in order to allow the carrier's planes to fly reconnaissance, strafing, torpedo and bombing missions.
3) By flying adequate reconnaissance missions with float planes from the very many battleships, cruisers, etc, the navy should have known the location of all German ships so they could attack them or at least avoid them.
4) Britain had plenty of submarines at this time and they should have been deployed so as to protect British ships and sink as many German ships as possible and this was absolutely not done.
Last edited:
Heavy cruisers have 8" guns. Cruisers did sink the Scharnhorst in '43 when they cought the Germans by surprise, the same way the Germans cought the Carrier. The RAF planes were on board to help defend the Home Islands, something you've been hammering on in other threads.
samneanderthal
Active member
Sorry I meant battlecruiser, like Scharnhorst, for example Repulse or Renown had 15" guns and old armored cruisers had 12" to 14".
How do you catch by surprise a carrier of the huge navy of the country that invented radar? They detected the Germans ships, one of the two destroyers was sent to investigate, but the captain did not increase speed or send a wave of planes to attack.
Strangely, the Germans sank Glorious, despite the smoke screen layed by the destroyer, using Radar to guide their shells!
As I understand, the court marshal was for the flight commander refusing to carry out a ground attack in Norway, before sailing back to Scapa.
Actually, the captain was in a hurry to carry out the court marshal and asked permission to detach his carrier and proceed independently, AND IT WAS GRANTED! weird priorities.
Is it better to dump the Gladiators and Hurricanes and save the pilots and carrier to fight in France (8 June, 1940 not in Britain) or to lose everything (only 35 survivors and the British learnt about the sinking through German radio)?
How do you catch by surprise a carrier of the huge navy of the country that invented radar? They detected the Germans ships, one of the two destroyers was sent to investigate, but the captain did not increase speed or send a wave of planes to attack.
Strangely, the Germans sank Glorious, despite the smoke screen layed by the destroyer, using Radar to guide their shells!
As I understand, the court marshal was for the flight commander refusing to carry out a ground attack in Norway, before sailing back to Scapa.
Actually, the captain was in a hurry to carry out the court marshal and asked permission to detach his carrier and proceed independently, AND IT WAS GRANTED! weird priorities.
Is it better to dump the Gladiators and Hurricanes and save the pilots and carrier to fight in France (8 June, 1940 not in Britain) or to lose everything (only 35 survivors and the British learnt about the sinking through German radio)?
Last edited:
BritinBritain
Per Ardua Ad Astra
How strange that the vast majority of experts (I don't count myself among them) consider Dowding and Keith Parks absolutely correct in their handling of the Battle of Britain, yet according to you everyone else is wrong and you are right. Churchill, again, was regarded by the majority of experts to be the right man at the right time.
Says it all, yet considers yourself to be expert in all things military, forever spouting what could have been done and what should have been done. All of us are wiser after the event, you wasn't the man on the spot when all hell was breaking lose around him. It is fine for those who was there, to be wrong, but you, who were not there, must be correct?
You are definitely a legend in your own mind.
Last edited:
samneanderthal
Active member
“Even when the experts all agree, they may well all be mistaken” Bertrand Russell.
"An expert can tell you exactly what is going to happen and after it doesn´t happen, can tell you exactly why it didn´t” Winston Churchill.
“Experts should be on tap but never on top” Winston Churchill.
“The greatest lesson in life is to know that even fools are sometimes right” Winston Churchill.
“ A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on”. Winston Churchill.
“Don't be buffaloed by experts and elites. Experts often possess more data than judgment. Elites can become so inbred that they produce hemophiliacs who bleed to death as soon as they are nicked by the real world” Collin Powell.
"An expert can tell you exactly what is going to happen and after it doesn´t happen, can tell you exactly why it didn´t” Winston Churchill.
“Experts should be on tap but never on top” Winston Churchill.
“The greatest lesson in life is to know that even fools are sometimes right” Winston Churchill.
“ A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on”. Winston Churchill.
“Don't be buffaloed by experts and elites. Experts often possess more data than judgment. Elites can become so inbred that they produce hemophiliacs who bleed to death as soon as they are nicked by the real world” Collin Powell.
Last edited:
samneanderthal
Active member
It is unfortunate that the British, French, Polish and Belgian pilots who had to face the LW on may 10, 1940 flying the worst planes cannot voice their opinion of Dowding's decision to keep the Spitfires, best Hurricanes and many pilots in Britain.
It is unfortunate that the hundreds of thousands of allied soldiers who had to face the densest and most prolonged ground support by the Luftwaffe cannot voice their opinion about the British planes in reserve while they were blown to smitherines.
It is unfortunate that the hundreds of thousands of Belgians, Frenchmen, Dutch, etc, who had to live under German rule for years cannot voice their opinion about Dowding's decision.
It is fortunate that an ignorant bastard like me can can voice his opinion:
Dowding was beaten in France and would have been beaten in Britain, had it not been by the few foreign pilots who didn't give up, despite Dowding's incompetence. He wasted his most valuable resource, the pilots in order to save his planes and could not have known that these foreign pilots would save him, but he knew that hundreds of French pilots would be out of the war if France capitulated. So he lost a few hundred British pilots, several hundred French pilots, a thousand mediocre planes and the huge French army and navy and a hundred of his precious modern fighters to evacuate from France in order to save a few hundred Hurricanes and even fewer Spitfires.
I don't care if a million experts and a billion people who were educated to admire Dowding, Churchill, Monty, etc, praise them, to me they were lousy leaders.
It is unfortunate that the hundreds of thousands of allied soldiers who had to face the densest and most prolonged ground support by the Luftwaffe cannot voice their opinion about the British planes in reserve while they were blown to smitherines.
It is unfortunate that the hundreds of thousands of Belgians, Frenchmen, Dutch, etc, who had to live under German rule for years cannot voice their opinion about Dowding's decision.
It is fortunate that an ignorant bastard like me can can voice his opinion:
Dowding was beaten in France and would have been beaten in Britain, had it not been by the few foreign pilots who didn't give up, despite Dowding's incompetence. He wasted his most valuable resource, the pilots in order to save his planes and could not have known that these foreign pilots would save him, but he knew that hundreds of French pilots would be out of the war if France capitulated. So he lost a few hundred British pilots, several hundred French pilots, a thousand mediocre planes and the huge French army and navy and a hundred of his precious modern fighters to evacuate from France in order to save a few hundred Hurricanes and even fewer Spitfires.
I don't care if a million experts and a billion people who were educated to admire Dowding, Churchill, Monty, etc, praise them, to me they were lousy leaders.
Last edited:
42RM
Banned
Men cease to think when they think they know it all.
Horace.
samneanderthal
Active member
Like I said if you think that I am an endless source of nonsense, why waste your time?
I think that deep inside you know these leaders were idiots but that everything you learnt could not be false so you're trying to sort out this inconsistency. I have some Russian acquaintances who experience the same feeling when discussing Stalin.
I think that deep inside you know these leaders were idiots but that everything you learnt could not be false so you're trying to sort out this inconsistency. I have some Russian acquaintances who experience the same feeling when discussing Stalin.
LeEnfield
Active member
Isn't great to read from all those experts who wrote books long after the war had finished saying what every should have done and how they could have done every thing better. War is all a matter of luck and if you ride your luck and win then lucky you, but while the war was going on it is all a guessing game and that fickle finger of fate comes into play.
Now just how many of these authors had any thing to with war or wrote ant articles stating what our leaders were doing wrong during the war, and I will lay you odds the answer is none, but afterwards they know just about every thing that every one else did wrong.
Now just how many of these authors had any thing to with war or wrote ant articles stating what our leaders were doing wrong during the war, and I will lay you odds the answer is none, but afterwards they know just about every thing that every one else did wrong.
samneanderthal
Active member
Read the London Times article criticizing the dismal failure to sink the German ships during the Channel Dash, stating The Germans have succeeded where Medina-Sidonia failed.
The Norway debacle was severely and openly critized and cost Chamberlain his post (not Churchill, the instigator).
The Greece debacle was severely criticized by news papers and military alike, etc,
Somehow, everybody forgot Churchill's blunders when his inspirational speeches and books praised how they were performing so well in their finest hour. Mass denial.
The Norway debacle was severely and openly critized and cost Chamberlain his post (not Churchill, the instigator).
The Greece debacle was severely criticized by news papers and military alike, etc,
Somehow, everybody forgot Churchill's blunders when his inspirational speeches and books praised how they were performing so well in their finest hour. Mass denial.
Last edited:
Did you ever thought about why the German attack is called "Blitzkrieg" ?
Did you ever thought about how an air force squadron is moved to another airfield? It's not alone the planes you know!
Did you ever thought about the vulnerability of airfields that are within striking range of the enemy?
Keeping the Hurricanes and Spitfires in England was the best choice and because of that the foreign pilots could keep on fighting.
samneanderthal
Active member
the question is did you ever think?
And yes, I've thought about these things.
Having few planes at the front, facing a lot of enemy planes makes their planes, Radar, living quarters, hangars, mechanics, fuel tanks, etc, far more vulnerable to the many enemy aircraft than having a lot more friendly planes around.
There were more months for Dowding to send the few hundred modern planes in reserve in Britain to next door France than there were for the LF to send a thousand planes, many of them bombers with more engines, requiring more fuel, mechanics and tons of bombs to Norway or far away Bulgaria to attack Greece in a few weeks. Hell, the Luftwaffe sent planes from Stalingrad to Africa, weatherized them and used in battle within weeks. What is the stupid problem with sending a few fighters from Britain to France or from Scotland, North and West Anglia or Wales to South and E. Anglia?
And yes, I've thought about these things.
Having few planes at the front, facing a lot of enemy planes makes their planes, Radar, living quarters, hangars, mechanics, fuel tanks, etc, far more vulnerable to the many enemy aircraft than having a lot more friendly planes around.
There were more months for Dowding to send the few hundred modern planes in reserve in Britain to next door France than there were for the LF to send a thousand planes, many of them bombers with more engines, requiring more fuel, mechanics and tons of bombs to Norway or far away Bulgaria to attack Greece in a few weeks. Hell, the Luftwaffe sent planes from Stalingrad to Africa, weatherized them and used in battle within weeks. What is the stupid problem with sending a few fighters from Britain to France or from Scotland, North and West Anglia or Wales to South and E. Anglia?
Last edited:
The allies were retreating - the Germans advancing. Logistically a big difference.
samneanderthal
Active member
Yes it is much more difficult to advance conquering terrain that to defend terrain you already occupy close to your production centers.
LeEnfield
Active member
The odd thing was that all the details for dealing with a major break out by the Germans from a Chanel port was kept in a safe at RAF Station Biggin Hill. Now all the code words to active a response were in there along with the details of the units that had been taught how to respond. Now by a quirk of fate or out right stupidity the Officer in charge of all of this had gone on leave and had taken the key with him, I know this sounds daft but it is true. The response to this break then became peace meal and not effective.
samneanderthal
Active member
Thanks Lee,
It taked guts to admit to a British mistake.
It takes more than a dumb guy for something like that to happen, the officer in charge could have busted the lock or contacted the originator of the response plan, or in the worst case, improvised.
The same thing happened in the Philippines. The famous MacArthur was supposed to put in action the Rainbow plan to attack the Japanese airfields in Formosa as soon as war broke out. But he did nothing when he was notified of the attack in PH, so the Japs promptly destroyed the American planes. MacArthur tried to pretend that he was not aware of the plan, but the officer in charge of the planes had contacted him and he refused to set it in motion. Even had the officer not contacted him, the planes were his most important asset and he had the responsability to be familiar with the plan and to put it in action. Hell, even if there had not been any plan, MacArthur should have bombed the Jap planes ASAP.
It taked guts to admit to a British mistake.
It takes more than a dumb guy for something like that to happen, the officer in charge could have busted the lock or contacted the originator of the response plan, or in the worst case, improvised.
The same thing happened in the Philippines. The famous MacArthur was supposed to put in action the Rainbow plan to attack the Japanese airfields in Formosa as soon as war broke out. But he did nothing when he was notified of the attack in PH, so the Japs promptly destroyed the American planes. MacArthur tried to pretend that he was not aware of the plan, but the officer in charge of the planes had contacted him and he refused to set it in motion. Even had the officer not contacted him, the planes were his most important asset and he had the responsability to be familiar with the plan and to put it in action. Hell, even if there had not been any plan, MacArthur should have bombed the Jap planes ASAP.
The british were fully aware of the upcoming Dash, but let them get away with it to protect Ultra eavesdropping. It was the correct decision, the Dash had no big impact on the war's course.
That the German warships could leave(better :fly) for the Ostsee,was a good thing for Britain .As long as they were in the French harbours,they were a potential danger,in the Ostsee,they could do no harm,and,if I am not wrong,at least one of the ships was out for a long,very long time .(the Scharnhorst was out for 8 months)
Message from Roosevelt to Churchill:
The location of all the German ships in Germany (=the Ostsee) makes our joint North Atlantic naval problem more simple .
Message from Roosevelt to Churchill:
The location of all the German ships in Germany (=the Ostsee) makes our joint North Atlantic naval problem more simple .
Last edited: