Douglas Bader mystery

[BritinBritain]

I found this interesting story while searching the web

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread292208/pg1

The Douglas Bader Mystery

Here’s a conspiracy mystery that is a little different from usual ones we see, I hope you find it as interesting as I do.*

It begins innocently enough, in the memoirs of Kenneth Williams, a Royal Navy medic who recounts how, in 1942, he was asked to assist the illustrious Bader whilst he was staying at the Stork*Hotel*in*Liverpool;*

One morning before breakfast, Mr.Giles the manager, came and asked me if I knew of Douglas Bader. I looked at him and asked him was there anybody who didn’t know of Douglas “Tin Legs” Bader. He then told me that Bader was going to be a guest in the hotel for a couple of weeks whilst he was working on some*project. Giles then looked at me apprehensively and said “Ken, how would you feel about, like, going up to his room every morning before breakfast to give him some help to put his legs on?” I looked at him and said “You must be kidding, you want me to put Douglas Bader’s legs on every morning?” “Yes, Ken,” he replied, “he finds it very difficult to cope on his own and I would appreciate it if you could help him each morning.”

The problem with this is that Bader, completely unbeknownst to the author, had been shot down (possibly by one of his own men) the year before and we now know that Bader was PoW from then until the end of war, finishing up in Colditz. How could this be?*

Mr Williams was told by one source that he must have been mistaken and that he in fact met Colin Hodgkinson, a second RAF pilot who had lost both his legs but who is virtually unkown, however Ken Williams was introduced to Bader so this cannot be. Indeed in a telephone conversation with JKen Williams in 1976 Bader confirmed that he remembered being attended to by a young man in the Stork hotel in 1942. Fascinatingly however, Hodgkinson wrote his autobiography in the 1950’s and recounting his own experience as a PoW he wrote how he took delivery of a new leg dropped by the RAF, like Bader, but that due to tissue wastage there was no hope of it fitting and after several painful attempts with it he threw it away. Due to the severity of the situation ‘Hoppy’ was repatriated by the Germans in 1944 and he came home to be fitted with new legs, which was the only way . Now legend has it that the RAF dropped legs to Bader and he used them for the rest of the war, how can this be? He must have been measured up.*

The idea that Bader might return to the UK to be fitted with new legs and then voluntarily return to Germany to see out his time in a PoW camp seems preposterous, yet that seems to be the only realistic explanation. So what was the deal? And why is it so secret that pressure has been brought to bear from official departments in the UK government?*

If anyone can add any useful information it would be gratefully received and Mr Williams tells me that he will answer any questions you may have through myself, Mr Williams himself has received a huge amount of personal abuse on other forums through his quest to merely find the truth and so is unwilling to participate directly, and after some of the things I have seen directed at him I do not blame him. I hope and believe that ATS members are more respectful towards an 84 year old veteran than these other forum contributors?*

The main question therefore is not whether or not this meeting took place, the fact of it was confirmed by Bader himself at a time when the author was unaware that it shouldn't have been possible, but rather WHY this meeting was possible, what was going on?*

 

[VDKMS]

I once read that a RAF Lancaster got clearance from the Luftwaffe do drop his legs. I thought it was somewhere over France. They also took advantage of that to drop some bombs. That's all I can remember.

 

[MontyB]

One of the problems I have with this story is the need for the British to supply his artificial legs at all, to my mind there are two problems with this:

1) Muscle wastage during the period he was without legs would have made the measurements inaccurate therefore new legs probably would not have fitted.

2) Germany was a world leader in prosthetic limbs at the time (there was a war going on) why would they have needed Britain to make them.

 

[LeEnfield]

I think I read in his book the Germans had suggested that they would allow an aircraft to drop Baders false leg to relace the one he lost when he was shot down.
This was refused and the Germans were informed it would be dropped during a bombing mission

 

[BritinBritain]

One of the problems I have with this story is the need for the British to supply his artificial legs at all, to my mind there are two problems with this:

1) Muscle wastage during the period he was without legs would have made the measurements inaccurate therefore new legs probably would not have fitted.

2) Germany was a world leader in prosthetic limbs at the time (there was a war going on) why would they have needed Britain to make them.

(1). That was the argument put forward by Kenneth Williams, Bader would have needed to have his tin legs properly fitted.

(2)The only suggestion I can come up with is, the Germans had enough on their plate supplying limbs to their own people.

 

[MontyB]

(1). That was the argument put forward by Kenneth Williams, Bader would have needed to have his tin legs properly fitted.

My understanding is that would have been a major problem with having legs made and flown in although I guess it is possible that the Germans could have made minor adjustments.

However this brings up another question in why would the Germans had wanted him to have "custom" made legs as he was constantly trying to escape and at best was uncooperative towards his captors.

(2)The only suggestion I can come up with is, the Germans had enough on their plate supplying limbs to their own people.

True but with him being a POW and not an especially high ranking one (His fame was still being developed in 1942) I can't see why they they simply would not have issued him with a set of basic replacements and moved on.

The problem here is that if this meeting did take place then to me it makes sense that it was kept secret as I doubt that the British public would have been to enthusiastic about deals done with the Germans in 1942 and as such a small out of the way hotel also makes sense but then I also wonder why there is no corroborating evidence from hotel employees.

I also wonder why Liverpool surely the shortest route would have been a quick flight across the channel to one of the amputee hospitals in Southern England, Liverpool would have made sense if they were bringing him by submarine but that would have had him out of sight for a fairly long time and his fellow POW's would have noticed that.

I don't find the idea that he would have returned to captivity all that preposterous had the mission been prearranged but I am not sure I can understand why they would have devoted the resources to sending anyone home for medical attention just to bring him back again.

I am prepared to be open minded on this one as there are parts of the story that make sense but there are also bits that need more information.

 

[BritinBritain]

My understanding is that would have been a major problem with having legs made and flown in although I guess it is possible that the Germans could have made minor adjustments.

However this brings up another question in why would the Germans had wanted him to have "custom" made legs as he was constantly trying to escape and at best was uncooperative towards his captors.

I agree with you, but then again he was even at that stage he was becoming a household name in the UK.

True but with him being a POW and not an especially high ranking one (His fame was still being developed in 1942) I can't see why they they simply would not have issued him with a set of basic replacements and moved on.

Could it be that it was about propaganda and the German treatment of POW's?

The problem here is that if this meeting did take place then to me it makes sense that it was kept secret as I doubt that the British public would have been to enthusiastic about deals done with the Germans in 1942 and as such a small out of the way hotel also makes sense but then I also wonder why there is no corroborating evidence from hotel employees..

My only suggestion here, if this had actually happened it would have been kept under wraps as much as possible. A "need to know" basis.

I also wonder why Liverpool surely the shortest route would have been a quick flight across the channel to one of the amputee hospitals in Southern England, Liverpool would have made sense if they were bringing him by submarine but that would have had him out of sight for a fairly long time and his fellow POW's would have noticed that.

Liverpool does make sense to me, I would suggest that possibly Bader travelled to the Irish republic by U Boat, once in the Republic driven the short distance to Northern Ireland, then by boat to Liverpool. Then after his legs were fitted, the same route back

Regarding fellow POW's I'd also suggest that they were told that Bader was being transferred perhaps for medical treatment .

I don't find the idea that he would have returned to captivity all that preposterous had the mission been prearranged but I am not sure I can understand why they would have devoted the resources to sending anyone home for medical attention just to bring him back again.

I can only guess that as Bader was such a prized prisoner and that it was all part of the deal. As far as I am aware there were a number of strange deals made between not only the RAF and the Luftwaffe, but also German and British troops. During the battle for Monte Casino for example, there was a number of truces enabling German Para's and British forces to attend to their wounded, even sharing medical equipment, as well as Germans and British sharing cigarettes or showing photographs of families.

I am prepared to be open minded on this one as there are parts of the story that make sense but there are also bits that need more information.

I agree

 

[James Christie]

My only suggestion here, if this had actually happened it would have been kept under wraps as much as possible. A "need to know" basis.

If it was kept under wraps as much as possible and on a need to know, what was he doing in a hotel in public view?

 

[MontyB]

To a large degree it was because the hotel he was allegedly in was small in a very quiet area, I suspect it is more likely he would have been recognised more readily in a flash hotel or even on a military base.

There are a number of parts to this story I find difficult to reconcile but being in an out of the way hotel isn't one of them, why they would have sent him to Britain is a bigger question when:
A) The Germans had the expertise to make the legs themselves.
B) I think it far more likely that they would have allowed a British doctor to fly to France to do the measuring.

There is one bit of information that does interest me though, between 4 August 1942 and 18 August 1942 he was held at STALAG V111B which is right next to Gleiwitz aerodrome and he spent 10 days in solitary there, the official reason for this was that he has used a false name to get onto a work party at the aerodrome so he could steal and aircraft and escape.

This raises a few questions:
1) Why would the Germans put a legless man on a work party.
2) Why was an RAF Officer at an "other ranks" POW camp.

Basically it seems to me that this is a mystery that may actually have viable timeline during the 10 days he was in solitary next to an air base. POWs would have seen him prior to solitary and after solitary but not while in solitary.

But I really don't know on this one it may have some basis but it all still seems unlikely.

 

[LeEnfield]

I think the Bader was that well known that if he disappeared from a POW Camp for any length of time some one would have said some thing by now. Also under the Geneva Convention wasn't there some thing about Officers not having to do any work. Now knowing of Baders direct approach to these things can you see him go out to do manual work if he didn't have to and if he did would he have not written about it in his book.

 

[James Christie]

can't say I buy the theory on the hotel. I looked it up and it was right in the middle of liverpool which is hardly out of the way and apparently hotel staff were being let in on the secret? doesn't add up. mi had safe houses so thered have been no need. I agree with le enfield. bader made a lot of enemies as well as admirers and if anything funny had gone on someone would have said something by now. I thonk this story is hokum

 

[MontyB]

But that is my point, at the time he was meant to be in Britain he had "disappeared" for 10 day into solitary confinement.

So IF this story was true I think it would be feasible that:
1) He is seen going into solitary.
2) He is then smuggled by aircraft to Britain for the medical work.
3) He is flown back in time to be released from solitary.

But before people start accusing me of supporting this story please note I started it with a big IF as I can not understand what circumstances they would do this for a POW.

However as you have already said officers were not required to work and why was he at an "other ranks" camp which is what STALAG V111B was further to this RAF personnel were generally held by the Luftwaffe at STALAG Luft camps, the only thing special about STALAG V111B. is that it is right next door to an airfield.

So as I have mentioned previously even though I have strong doubts that this event ever happened it does have a window of opportunity matching the time it was meant to have occurred.

 

[James Christie]

y

But that is my point, at the time he was meant to be in Britain he had "disappeared" for 10 day into solitary confinement.

So IF this story was true I think it would be feasible that:
1) He is seen going into solitary.
2) He is then smuggled by aircraft to Britain for the medical work.
3) He is flown back in time to be released from solitary.

But before people start accusing me of supporting this story please note I started it with a big IF as I can not understand what circumstances they would do this for a POW.

However as you have already said officers were not required to work and why was he at an "other ranks" camp which is what STALAG V111B was further to this RAF personnel were generally held by the Luftwaffe at STALAG Luft camps, the only thing special about STALAG V111B. is that it is right next door to an airfield.

So as I have mentioned previously even though I have strong doubts that this event ever happened it does have a window of opportunity matching the time it was meant to have occurred.

point taken; though of course people in solitary weren't necessarily completely incommunicado so even given a p window it doesn't follow that bader was totally out of sight to the rest of the camp.

I've read the arguments on the ats site and there's a lot of interesting stuff. the point was made that in 42 the germans were refusing to cooperate with repatriation so why tgey should make a special case for one oficer who wasn't in any critical condition doesn't add up. from their point of view why make things easier for someine so determoned to make their lives dufficult? really doesn't make any sense.

I've been wondering about your point on stalag viiib as its a good question. from some limited digging it seems that it was a big camp with a lot of different separate parts. there seems to have been an raf section and bader wasn't the only officer there or to have tried to escape by getting on a work party

there's some here about about a p/o chisholm doing tge same thing:


http://www.conscript-heroes.com/escapelines/EEIE-Articles/Art-16-Escapers-from-Germany.htm

 

[MontyB]

True but again it has a hazy area:
Why was he in Lansdorf in the first place, it was a camp for army personnel not air force and why was he (a disabled officer in a work detail).

If that part can be explained clearly then I would say there is nothing to the story but until that time I can see a small window of opportunity that it is a real story.

Now to play devils advocate, hotels have staff even small ones why have none of them raised this or supported the story?

 

[James Christie]

True but again it has a hazy area:
Why was he in Lansdorf in the first place, it was a camp for army personnel not air force and why was he (a disabled officer in a work detail).

If that part can be explained clearly then I would say there is nothing to the story but until that time I can see a small window of opportunity that it is a real story.

Now to play devils advocate, hotels have staff even small ones why have none of them raised this or supported the story?

the piece on chisholm seems to indicate stalag viiib being a large place spread over a number of sites one of which was a raf section. and bader doesn't seem to have been on a work detail but enveigled himself on it.

I agree that other hotwl staff should have come forward surely. the ats site suggests it was some sort of joke played on the lad who said he was helping bader which makws sense

 

[MontyB]

the piece on chisholm seems to indicate stalag viiib being a large place spread over a number of sites one of which was a raf section.

That is true however the RAF section was not constructed until 1943 and those transferred there were mainly non-commissioned RAF personnel from Luft STALAG III the new camp became STALAG Luft VIII-B.

Interestingly enough though the medical facilities at STALAG VIII were considered among the best within the camp system.

 

[James Christie]

That is true however the RAF section was not constructed until 1943 and those transferred there were mainly non-commissioned RAF personnel from Luft STALAG III the new camp became STALAG Luft VIII-B.

Interestingly enough though the medical facilities at STALAG VIII were considered among the best within the camp system.

true but there seems to have been an raf section prior to that. p/o chisholm was sent there in june 42 according to the link I posted


I found this on the hospital facility and this raises a question. if bader was already at the place with the finest medical facilites in germany......why would they need yo go to all the trouble of getting him to the uk and back? again it doesn't make sense

http://www.lamsdorf.com/medical-matters.html

 

[MontyB]

true but there seems to have been an raf section prior to that. p/o chisholm was sent there in june 42 according to the link I posted


I found this on the hospital facility and this raises a question. if bader was already at the place with the finest medical facilites in germany......why would they need yo go to all the trouble of getting him to the uk and back? again it doesn't make sense

http://www.lamsdorf.com/medical-matters.html

I agree I still can not find a reason for this event to have occurred but given the time frame offered there is as I have said a window of opportunity.

Here is something interesting, the red cross inspection report for 8 August 1942, it reports 1 man under arrest for insubordination...

One prisoner was under arrest, serving a sentence of ten days for insubordination towards his British superior. He is treated according to the Geneva Convention.

http://www.pegasusarchive.org/pow/cBab21_Red2.htm

 

[BritinBritain]

This is a letter written by Kenneth Williams,

Alex Ross was indeed acting as Bader's batman whilst in Colditz and yes,
Alex was advised by the Germans that he was eligible for repatriation, being
a medic and a non-combatant. It is also true that Bader refused to allow
Alex to come home and told him in no uncertain terms that he (Alex) was his
"Lackey" and he would be staying in Colditz to look after him.

I was hoping to speak to Alex Ross through a very good contact very early in
my investigations but he died before this happened and his story is now
silent for ever. It is well documented however, that whilst in Colditz and
when the war was over, Bader treated him very shabbily.

The story of my meeting with Bader in Liverpool in 1942 does not
automatically assume that he had been "Repatriated." The whole thrust of my
story is based rightly or wrongly on MY reasoning that he made this short
visit for some purpose that I am not au faix with, but have put forward my
theory that he came back to have new legs organized and then, according to
the generally accepted story, was later liberated by the Americans when his
war ended as a prisoner in Colditz.

If Bader had been "repatriated" in 1942 (as Hodgkinson was in 1944) as your
forum member apparently assumes, then there would not be any reason for the whole drama of The Bader Enigma! His repatriation would have been widely publicized and Alex Ross would have in my view, not automatically have been included as part and parcel of any Bader repatriation to England.

Bader's Liverpool excursion was in MY view very obviously an arrangement
made between those in very high places as an expedient and I just happened
to be on the spot at that time.

Your members should fully understand that that whilst there is no question
whatsoever that Bader DID come to Liverpool in 1942 as I proclaim, but why
he came is just as big a mystery to me as it might be to them to fully
understand why these remarkable events took place.


Best Wishes

 

[James Christie]

I agree I still can not find a reason for this event to have occurred but given the time frame offered there is as I have said a window of opportunity.

Here is something interesting, the red cross inspection report for 8 August 1942, it reports 1 man under arrest for insubordination...



http://www.pegasusarchive.org/pow/cBab21_Red2.htm

very interesting. there's a map of lamsdord on that site which shows the camp subdivided into various sections which supports the idea that there might be an raf area. one story I've found said the raf section was in the middle "as the germans thought the raf men were more ontelligent and so more likely to escape" and there is onw section surrounded on all sides in the map


http://www.pegasusarchive.org/pow/S344/PicSt_344_Map.htm


britinafrica - can't see letter adds anything. there clearly is a question whether it did or even could have happened and the rest is just supposition