Douglas Bader mystery

[James Christie]

To be honest I think the only way to narrow down the odds on this one would be to look in depth at Bader's war time movements between 1941 and 1943, I do not think we will be able to find any corroborating evidence from others as the passage of time has pretty much eliminated anyone that may possibly be able to verify any part of the story and even if anyone was still capable of doing so they would have similar memory issues.

At a guess I would say that the only reliable source at this point would be the MOD or German war time records and unfortunately I am not sure where you would start on that one.

I've no idea if german pow records survived the war, but according to one of the ats posts, bader was intetviewrd by mi9 after his return from colditz and that report which was confidential at the time is at the national record office. there is a website that quoted a lot of other mi9 debriefs, but not bader.

 

[MontyB]

Well I would suggest that the only 2 locations that would have that sort of information would be the MOD but I doubt they would release it if it did exist and German POW records which these days would be public domain if they do exist.

Maybe the Red Cross who I assume would have set up something like this and acted as the go between.

I doubt MI9 would have known too much about it, I suspect they simply interviewed because he was a senior officer in a high security facility they probably interviewed everyone in Colditz.

There may be survivors out there that could shed some light on the subject but I think it only be these official documents that could be used as an unimpeachable source.

I admit I am operating from the principle that his story has some basis in fact because if we adopt the standard internet policy on this matter of just rejecting it out of hand and then researching facts to disprove the story we will get no where except a long way off track when in my opinion there is only one question we need to focus on "Was Bader released on short term parole for medical reasons at any stage".

 

[James Christie]

I doubt the mod has anything, pow debrief was the province of mi9 who debriefed all officer pow on return, not sure about nco and enlisted. this was standard but appears to have been in depth and confidentual so im sure bader would have disclosed the event to the security services had it been purely for medical reasons. anything is now going to be in the national archive. I've no idea if the red cross have any records

on the prima face evidence I see little possibility that bader could have been on parole for medical reasons

williams account days he was told bader was 'working on a project', had legs in functioning order as he had to help fit them and presumably therefore baders stumps were also 'functioning'.

the leg firm was in roehampton, the institutions and hospitals that knew bader also in the se - uxbridge and east grinstead.

in 1942 it appears germany was not cooperating on repatriation even in the most desperate cases, and we know that germany had excellent medical facilities for pow plus the ability to repair baders legs, as recounted in reach for the sky. we know bader got new legs supplied at least once from the uk. the point was made earlier about wasting of the limbs under the pow diet but we also know that in mid 42 bader is described as walking well without a stick so bu that period at least he was managing adequately.

I admit I am coming from a position of denying the event happened but I think the unreliability of the information from williams and the plethora of othrr circumstantial evidence means you have little choice. one starts with the default - bader in captivity and then look to evidential toplace him elsewhere. I think this is williams mistake in going from liverpool as the default.

 

[MontyB]

Part of the problem with this story is that it seems to have taken on a life of its own and I think even we have lost sight of what it is we are trying to determine for example if I was to use your last post to develop an argument I would argue that his legs are irrelevant as he was in Britain on a "project" not getting new legs.

This is why I am arguing that even Ken Williams is an irrelevance in the story along with all of his recollections the only thing that needs to be determined is whether Bader went home for a short space of time and nothing else.

I don't disagree that the story is a long shot especially in the format Williams has laid out but I do not believe it can be investigated effectively without looking for that one vital bit of information and pretty much everything else are just Chinese whispers.

If I was going to write this up right now I would describe it as unlikely but not impossible which is pretty much where we started.

Now I have a question for you, why does this thread interest you so much?
It is unusual that someone signs on and stays within the one thread.

 

[James Christie]

I agree, and maybe the MI9 report is a good place to start as at least its existence is known, even if contents or relevance arent. Sadly I'm no where near to go to see it.
As to why the interest, its the detective angle of it. I started looking at a few threads here, but most seem to have been typical internetarguments over interpretations and so on. This one is much more intriguing, and discussion with you has been interesting with none of that internet childishness.

The International Red Cross does hold records, it seems. I will contact them to see if they are able to release anything they hold.

"Searching for the records of an individual prisoner of war is a complex and skilled task, carried out by staff within the archives division and research service of the ICRC. A search can be made on receipt of a written request. Please be sure to provide as much detail as possible in your letter. It is essential that you include the name and nationality of the individual you are enquiring about.


The following information, if known, is also extremely helpful to their search:

• date of birth
• place of birth
• name of father
• date of capture
• regiment
• army number

Researchers should bear in mind that these records were compiled for humanitarian reasons and the ICRC is still fully occupied with similar humanitarian work in the present day. Searches of a historical nature may therefore take a considerable time to complete.
To apply for a record of a prisoner of war, or for more information, please write to:
Archives division and research service
International Committee of the Red Cross
19 Avenue de la Paix
Geneva CH-1202
Switzerland"

 

[MontyB]

The Red Cross may not be a good an option as I had initially thought because if the parole was not for his legs then chances are they did not use them to arrange the transfer but they may still be able to provide a better timeline.

However I agree I like the detective aspect of it as well, it is a chance to learn things about someone I really did not know a whole lot about.

 

[James Christie]

The Red Cross may not be a good an option as I had initially thought because if the parole was not for his legs then chances are they did not use them to arrange the transfer but they may still be able to provide a better timeline.

However I agree I like the detective aspect of it as well, it is a chance to learn things about someone I really did not know a whole lot about.

Just so. Even if they didn't have anything to do with it (and given the situation with Bader and the Germans on repatriation, I assume they didn't), they should have records of him as a POW so it may help with fixing his whereabouts.

 

[MontyB]

I agree, it is probably the best/only official avenue open at this point.

 

[BritinBritain]

I'm glad I started something interesting lol

 

[MontyB]

There are some interesting goings on around the time of August - September 1941 but I am not quite sure what to make of them yet but it has him escaping from a hospital in France and some dealings with Hans-Ulrich Rudel that I can't quite understand either.

 

[BritinBritain]

In all honesty, there's a hell of a lot went on during WW2 that will never be fully explained nor revealed

 

[James Christie]

interesting, do tell more! I have written to the international red cross,waiting to see if anything comes of it! baders escape from st omer hospital is quite well documented but I think its also well established that he was rounded up and packed off to germany in short order so as far as I know there's no window for the williams story thrre.

 

[James Christie]

In all honesty, there's a hell of a lot went on during WW2 that will never be fully explained nor revealed

Absolutely - fog of war, mists of time etc. Although even goings on as hard to explain or prove/disprove as this 'Bader Mystery' can be analysed and dissected as we've done here. We've not disproved or proved it, but we have found a number of facts that do seem to give some clarity and enable a rational view to be taken.

 

[MontyB]

interesting, do tell more! I have written to the international red cross,waiting to see if anything comes of it! baders escape from st omer hospital is quite well documented but I think its also well established that he was rounded up and packed off to germany in short order so as far as I know there's no window for the williams story thrre.

No but the connection to Rudel interested me as for a man that hated the Nazi's in more than just a passing manner he seems to have befriended several including Rudel (if this information is accurate) who was very much the Luftwaffe's poster boy for Nazi-ism qnd who was also an amputee.

 

[James Christie]

No but the connection to Rudel interested me as for a man that hated the Nazi's in more than just a passing manner he seems to have befriended several including Rudel (if this information is accurate) who was very much the Luftwaffe's poster boy for Nazi-ism qnd who was also an amputee.

Interesting. Bader certainly hated the Germans as an enemy, but he may actually have had some things in common with an ex-Nazi as he was fairly right wing in some of his views. Which is not to suggest that he was an apologist or supporter of Nazi-ism but I could understand how he might become friendly with such a man as Rudel after the war.

I knew that Bader got on well with Galland, who was something of a rebel like Bader. Ex combatents often do become friendly - I recently read an account of how an Argentinian soldier who had pushed the fire button on an Exocet had later become friends with some of the crew of the ship that his missile hit.

 

[BritinBritain]

Interesting. Bader certainly hated the Germans as an enemy, but he may actually have had some things in common with an ex-Nazi as he was fairly right wing in some of his views.

Quite a few of his fellow POW's hated Bader for his "goon" baiting, they were certain that his antics was going to get someone killed.

Although I admire his courage, I didn't like the man at all, he was extremely arrogant and obnoxious. To be honest, I thought he was a nasty piece of work.

Compare him with a lesser-known RAF pilot, Sergeant Dixie Deans, known simply as 'Sarge', who assumed command of thousands of RAF PoWs in Stalag Luft VI. Deans saw it as his job to get them home.

With his quiet authority and wisdom, he kept his men from harm in the dark days towards the end of the war when there were genuine fears of Nazi reprisals against unarmed prisoners.

He stood jaw to jutting jaw with German commandants without ruffling feathers. And he got his men home, after a 500-mile march across Germany in the bitterest winter of the century.

To stop his men being mistaken for German soldiers and being strafed by RAF fighters, he rode through a battlefield on a bicycle to British lines. Then he rode back through the fighting to be with his men again and endure several more weeks as a prisoner.

Bader and Deans left the RAF at the end of the war — Bader to become a legend through a biography and a film, Deans to obscurity.
Hundreds of grateful men packed the RAF church in the Strand for Deans' funeral in 1989. He was described in an address as 'a much-loved man of rare quality. His heroism, his wisdom and his compassion will never be forgotten.'

 

[James Christie]

For sure, it's a matter of record that Bader's character was quite different from the way Kenneth Moore depicted him, but as Deere said 'if he wasn't like that he wouldn't be here now'.

Whether or not I'd have liked him is irrelevant really, but what his resolute character, utter clarity of purpose and constant antipathy to the enemy do mean, to my mind, is that there's little chance of the 'Bader Mystery' being anything other than some form of mistake.

There were many unsung heroes in that time, one can only be grateful for all such men.

 

[BritinBritain]

Whether or not I'd have liked him is irrelevant really, but what his resolute character, utter clarity of purpose and constant antipathy to the enemy do mean, to my mind, is that there's little chance of the 'Bader Mystery' being anything other than some form of mistake.

Our station was graced with the presence of a few Battle of Britain pilots during a Battle of Britain open day, Bader was one, as was Stanford Tuck. Stanford Tuck was a Gentleman, Bader was his usual arrogant and obnoxious self.

There were many unsung heroes in that time, one can only be grateful for all such men.

At the risk of going off topic for a moment, one of the greatest British unsung hero's was Sergeant Major Charles Coward. He is personally responsible for saving many Jewish concentration camp inmates lives. But that's another story.

 

[MontyB]

Interesting. Bader certainly hated the Germans as an enemy, but he may actually have had some things in common with an ex-Nazi as he was fairly right wing in some of his views. Which is not to suggest that he was an apologist or supporter of Nazi-ism but I could understand how he might become friendly with such a man as Rudel after the war.

I knew that Bader got on well with Galland, who was something of a rebel like Bader. Ex combatents often do become friendly - I recently read an account of how an Argentinian soldier who had pushed the fire button on an Exocet had later become friends with some of the crew of the ship that his missile hit.

Yeah one of the problems faced this long after the event though is sorting fact from urban myth, many of these guys have become famous off biographies that they almost wrote themselves so many of the bad bits have been written out and the good bits embellished to almost heroic levels (I would put both Rommel and Guderians current reputation in this category). Then there is also the urban legends that over the years have become internet truths.

I think this is a case that will be almost impossible to get to the bottom of.

 

[MontyB]

Interesting. Bader certainly hated the Germans as an enemy, but he may actually have had some things in common with an ex-Nazi as he was fairly right wing in some of his views. Which is not to suggest that he was an apologist or supporter of Nazi-ism but I could understand how he might become friendly with such a man as Rudel after the war.

I knew that Bader got on well with Galland, who was something of a rebel like Bader. Ex combatents often do become friendly - I recently read an account of how an Argentinian soldier who had pushed the fire button on an Exocet had later become friends with some of the crew of the ship that his missile hit.

Apparently in 1945 according to Gunther Rall, Bader arranged for Rudel to have an artificial leg fitted and the bit I found interesting is that apparently he had met Rudel in August 1942.