Douglas Bader mystery

It is unfortunate that his website has gone as I would like to have read his story rather than the collection of "random" sections that people on the various sites have posted because if the real story is as I suspect (that he is looking for help in verifying his story) then I believe he has been rather poorly treated.
 
he does seem as you put it a grumpy old bugger so I assume his attitude has not helped. everything I've seen from him has been based on his word is gospel which is going to provoke reactions

anyway,I have found it. click on the archive date

http://pandora.nla.gov.au/tep/20422

I've not read it all but the bader story in there is a few lines, I assume his website had a lot more with his theories on why. it does seem that the dates and contemporary events seem confused. he also talks of the man having two sticks which contradicts all the descriptions of baders ability to walk, even if one accepts he might have had something temporary - however the german description of walking well without a stick is from his attempted escape just prior to his spell in lamsdorf solitary so the two descriptions don't seem to fit together. I'm still struggling to see any basis for his story having any way of fitting in with what's known of bader and the facts we have. the more I read the more I think he's got something badly wrong
 
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As I have said I think he is a year out, especially when he talks of the blitz and Churchill's visit.

There were a number of duplicate events that fit his timeline and an earlier one I suspect he has mixed these up.
 
As I have said I think he is a year out, especially when he talks of the blitz and Churchill's visit.

There were a number of duplicate events that fit his timeline and an earlier one I suspect he has mixed these up.


its known as 'blended memory' where similar events become run together and conflated into one event. that said, I'm relatively sure the man wasn't bader.
 
its known as 'blended memory' where similar events become run together and conflated into one event. that said, I'm relatively sure the man wasn't bader.

Bader was quite well known, I think it would be almost impossible to get him mixed up with anyone else.

As far as I am aware, the MOD hasn't denied or confirmed Williams story, the only thing they have done is refuse to give Mr Williams any information whatsoever. What makes me suspicious is that IF there wasn't any information regarding Bader was in Liverpool while he should be in a POW camp, why not come right out and say so?
 
Bader was quite well known, I think it would be almost impossible to get him mixed up with anyone else.

As far as I am aware, the MOD hasn't denied or confirmed Williams story, the only thing they have done is refuse to give Mr Williams any information whatsoever. What makes me suspicious is that IF there wasn't any information regarding Bader was in Liverpool while he should be in a POW camp, why not come right out and say so?

bader was well known as a name but in those pre tv and internet day his face might have been less identifiable. hard to know for sure but I think mis identification would be very possible. the story says that he was told it was Bader but the man himself never really spoke - to me it sounds like he took the identity he was given by his manager at face value and probably had nothing to compare it against until years later by which time the quirks of memory would have made it hard for him to be sure either way. Today you could find a photo of a well known person on your phone or computer in seconds, then it would have been much harder.

the MOD angle seems a red herring to me and I don't think anything can be read into it either way. they get a lot of crank letters eg the flying saucer stories from the public which were released recently as I read it on ATS the MOD said they had no information, which seems a standard response. By then the MOD would have no papers as everything would have been at the public records office at kew so they probably did have no information and they'd not go hunting for anything more on what probably looked like a crank letter. ken williams seems to have done a lot of reading meanings into vague coincidences or making things like a non committal response seem more meaningful than it probably was intended to be. I get suspicious when people start putting a spin on things, it usually hides something far more prosaic.
 
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its known as 'blended memory' where similar events become run together and conflated into one event. that said, I'm relatively sure the man wasn't bader.

Personally I think it was Bader but the time line is out by around 12 months and it is set before he was shot down.

Essentially I think there are too many consistencies for his story to be entirely wrong or made up but there is not enough evidence to say that the 1942 timeline is correct plus I think the 1941 timeline fits the story far better.

I really hope the guy finds the evidence he is looking for but I suspect this late in the piece there is little chance he will.
Being a fan of the Occam Razor principle I think the simplest argument here is that he got his dates wrong.
 
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Personally I think it was Bader but the time line is out by around 12 months and it is set before he was shot down.

Essentially I think there are too many consistencies for his story to be entirely wrong or made up but there is not enough evidence to say that the 1942 timeline is correct plus I think the 1941 timeline fits the story far better.

I really hope the guy finds the evidence he is looking for but I suspect this late in the piece there is little chance he will.
Being a fan of the Occam Razor principle I think the simplest argument here is that he got his dates wrong.

I'm interested to know what consistencies you've found. my analysis sees too many inconsistencies for it to be bader. the man used sticks which bader didn't , bader was proud, class conscious and known to reject help, ross attended bader in solitary which seems to plug the potential window of opportunity. occams razor would seem to me to dictate that it didnt happen.
 
One of the problems I have with this story concerns Bader himself and separating reality from the myth and you find the same thing with the likes of Churchill and Montgomery (I have no doubt a lot of others but those two were contemporary) there is no doubt they achieved great things but they also wrote their own history and created their own myths and that includes writing out the negatives.

As far as what aspects I find consistent well I think we have discussed those in this thread already and we have both agreed that no matter how unlikely we believe the whole story to be there are aspects we can not disprove so I can not see any reason to rehash them.

It is my opinion that he probably did meet Bader at some point and probably in the capacity of a medic but I can not find any thing to verify that it was after Bader had been taken prisoner (although there is a small window of opportunity that he may have) and think it more likely that he has confused and merged similar events of 1941 and 1942.

As I have also said I hope that one day he finds his proof as it would make a very interesting chapter to what we know of Douglas Bader.

This also raises another question for me, we have asked why would the Germans help Bader when there was clearly no reason for them to do so and we have also asked why Bader would have accepted help from the Germans when clearly he was hostile to them even in captivity.
So now I also would like to know what reason Williams would have to make up a story like this and to be honest at this stage in his life I can not see any obvious reason, it is not going to bring him notoriety and fame (lets be honest here 90% of the world have no clue who Douglas Bader was without the help of Google) and he wont get rich off it, without personal gain I cant see a motive for him to lie.
 
I agree there's no obvious reason for gain so the only motive I can think of is pride. had one spent years telling all and sundry a story that proved to be false one can imagine there would be great urge to show one was right all along. williams seems to be very full of his exploits and id imagine not the type to swallow his pride
 
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I think the most important bits of information for me are his comments on the Liverpool Blitz (Chapter 9), he talks of heavy raids that began to diminished in strength while he was there, this to me would indicate a period after May 1941 but before January 1942 when the last raid took place.

Given that he was shot down on the 9th August 1941 I would suggest that there are 4 months May-August 1941 where his story has a far better fit than 1942.
 
true - but he also talks of many american servicemen in and around the hotel which would be well into 1942. there's a lot of confusion on dates. its one reason that I don't have much confidence in his story; as others have said elsewhere, he doesn't come across as a reliable witness. the other reason why idont think it could have been bader is also timing. reach for the sky talks of bader as wing leader at tangmere in spring and summer of 41 as being forced to accept that he would have take a rest just before he was lost over france. this seems at odds with the idea of him being idle in a liverpudlian hotel for a week or so
 
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Not necessarily the lead elements US 34th Division arrived in England on the 15th January 1942 and the remaining elements arrived in Ireland 26th January 1942, also by this time the 8th Air Force was arriving in the UK.

Ask any policeman very few people come across as reliable witnesses, 10 people can see the 1 event in 10 different ways.

I don't doubt that his dates are screwed up in fact I would be surprised if they weren't given the length of time we are talking about which is why I am less interested in his time line but rather finding one that the bulk of his story would fit into, if that exists then we can look at seeing whether the story is possible within that time frame.
 
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Not necessarily the lead elements US 34th Division arrived in England on the 15th January 1942 and the remaining elements arrived in Ireland 26th January 1942, also by this time the 8th Air Force was arriving in the UK.

Ask any policeman very few people come across as reliable witnesses, 10 people can see the 1 event in 10 different ways.

I've seen numbers quoted on the build up of american s and while some hq staff did arrive early on, most of the bulk didn't start arriving until well into 1942. by the way, sources seem to indicate the 34th were entirely in ulster. om fairly sure there were only a relatively few us serviceman in mainland england until well into may/ june 42, not the large numbers williams is talking about. williams also talks of resentment building up with the locals and numerous servicemen. this sounds like late 1942 onwards, not january and certainly not summer 1941.

the point on witnesses is well made and another reason to doubt a story uncorroborated anywhere else!
 
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I don't doubt that his dates are screwed up in fact I would be surprised if they weren't given the length of time we are talking about which is why I am less interested in his time line but rather finding one that the bulk of his story would fit into, if that exists then we can look at seeing whether the story is possible within that time frame.

its hard as we clearly have memories that have got jumbled, as one would expect. the key clues to dates would seem to indicate either earlier in 41 when bader was openly at stalag 3, or later in 42, when bader was at colditz. either way it doesn't seem to work with the alleged window when bader was at lamsdorf
 
I would lean toward the earlier of the two dates, I am not worried about the argument that "tensions were rising with American servicemen" as that is some thing that is known to have happened later in the piece and I suspect he remembered American servicemen and just added the other bit as they were linked.

Essentially I think we should be looking at the period late 1941 - March 1942, I would be inclined to drop any bits of his story that can be linked to multiple time lines and just look at whether there was a point he could have met Bader towards the end of the Liverpool Blitz.
 
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I would lean toward the earlier of the two dates, I am not worried aboutthe argument that "tensions were rising with American servicemen" as that is some thing that is know to have happened later in the piece and I suspect he remembered American servicemen and just added the other bit as they were linked.

Essentially I think we should be looking at the period late 1941 - March 1942, I would be inclined to drop any bits of his story that can be linked to multiple time lines and just look at whether there was a point he could have met Bader towards the end of the Liverpool Blitz.

what I've read of the story has a lot of thay sort of mixed memory its to be expected but does mean you really can't depend on any facts on isolation. late 41 to march 42 has bader at stalag luft 3 causing trouble with the germans and openly amongst raf colleagues. I can't realistically see there is any way the liverpool trip fits. I come back to known facts again. bader had no need to go to liverpool for leg work, the description of the man at the hotel is wrong, the character doesn't fit and noone else despite years of trying has ever come up with anyone in britain or germany that has a scrap of a hint that it ever happened. I think occam would class his all in the impossible segment!
 
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To be honest I think the only way to narrow down the odds on this one would be to look in depth at Bader's war time movements between 1941 and 1943, I do not think we will be able to find any corroborating evidence from others as the passage of time has pretty much eliminated anyone that may possibly be able to verify any part of the story and even if anyone was still capable of doing so they would have similar memory issues.

At a guess I would say that the only reliable source at this point would be the MOD or German war time records and unfortunately I am not sure where you would start on that one.
 
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