Domestic Spying without a Court Order by the FBI

Do you approve of Domestic Spying without a Court Order?

  • Yes

    Votes: 8 28.6%
  • No

    Votes: 18 64.3%
  • Not Sure

    Votes: 2 7.1%

  • Total voters
    28
:shock:
Bullpup_five, where did I say I felt more comfortable and free here? I believe you may have made a leap from what was said to what you think it implies. Can you explain your reasoning behind this claim?

As what I actually did say was that I came here to see what it was like in a system that I fear the US is headed towards, a police state.
 
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OUtLINE

Curtailing human rights does not enhance safety from terrorism, because it make citizens prisoners and you cannot prevent everything.
citizens no rights, prosioners no rights and prevention always a weakness.

Citizens lose the rights. People feel they lose the freedom and that is scared, if there is someone spying your phone call and e-mail when you speak to someone and write a e-mail to your friends. There is no trust with anyone, its just like no life because they don't trust you anything.

Check your fingerprint and take of your shose in the airport. The authorities check your passport that is already can know about your pass and what you had done before. Why we really need to take of our shose and check it?!

However, all of those things, spying phone call, e-mail,fingerprint, and even check your shose. That don't have any helpful, there is still have terrosism, and stop the suicide bomber.

Curtailing human rights does not enhance safety from terrorism. Citizens can't lose the rights just because terrorism, you cannot prevent everything. Its just make citizens don't have good life and still weakness.
 
Bullpup_one said:
if there is someone spying your phone call and e-mail when you speak to someone and write a e-mail to your friends
Your missing the point here, if your talking to these people your probally not talking about how much you loved the latest espiode of south park. These are list of TERRIOST phone numbers, they arent between you and your buddy.

Bullpup_one said:
Why we really need to take of our shose and check it?!
If you set off a metal detector, sure you need to have your shoes looked at. There was a guy that tried to blow a plane with a bomb in his shoe.
 
Quote:
The U.S. government is even spying on other country's sites. I believe it is illegal. They should come up with reasonable reasons why they should spy on Muslim's website


That reasonable reason is that its talking about killing Americans, and Russian sats can look at the USA just as much as we can look at Iran. Actually go download google earth and you can look at any place in the USA you want.
If you read more carefully, I'm talking about websites not a physical location.

Quote:
According to "Bulldogg", he feel rather more free and safe in China where most Americans think it is a communist country.
It was my careless mistake. I just misunderstood what Bulldogg said. I think I was confused with other people who said they were comfortable in China.
 
Rabs said:
Your missing the point here, if your talking to these people your probally not talking about how much you loved the latest espiode of south park. These are list of TERRIOST phone numbers, they arent between you and your buddy.

But how do the goverment know that phone numbers is form the terrorism? is the FBI or police don't make misstake?;)
 
Bullpup_one said:
But how do the goverment know that phone numbers is form the terrorism? is the FBI or police don't make misstake?
Through captured labtops, cell phones, and human intelligence from those boys in gitmo.

Bullpup_five said:
If you read more carefully, I'm talking about websites not a physical location.
I wasnt sure so i adressed both. :)
 
Hello bullpups_two, seven, four and five.

All good arguments and I also commend your use of English. However, there are some holes in the loss of Freedoms by Americans themes. First, Congress gave the President leeway in using wiretaps and other types of surveillance of certain people in America. As you have been told by bulldogg, America has a problem with absolute Freedom. That can also lead to security problems that were not in existence when our Founders wrote our Constitution. The new enemy isn't lined up like soldiers with guns because they know that they would be defeated. So, a new weapon was born, mass communications. Wonderful easy to use communications such as our computers and satellite telephones and television which link our World together for the exchange of information.

On most of your televisions, your parents use a "smart chip" to filter out programs they don't want you to see because they are concerned for you and what you learn. On your computers, you can set your filters to recognize bad words and block them out, that is a firewall. These filters can also be "taught" to understand and "tag" words and phrases that can come from a source which intends to harm Americans.

While this is a form of spying by your parents or Government, it's not meant to gather data on you for doing you harm. When there is a string of data, whether it comes from a cell phone or computer, that meets the "filter" criteria that "tags" a user who intends to do harm to our citizens, it is monitored over time and if the information is needed by the FBI to build a case against a terrorist, then their telephone is tapped. Tapping is not done at random, there has to be a good reason to suspect that person of meaning to do harm.

I know this is long but I want you to know that our Constitution is not in danger but our Country is. Some of your arguments were about the Patriot Act not being worthwhile because the Trade Center was bombed. Understand that there was no system of gathering information before 9/11 but after the Patriot Act was enacted, there has not been another bomb or sabotage since 9/11.

As you have read in newspapers, there has been bombing and/or riots in Countries such as Russia, England, France, Australia, Syria, and much of the Middle East while here in America, several plots were discovered and stopped. These new enemies of Freedom want to take it away from all the free Democracies of the World. They must be stopped using technology, the very technology that everyone in the World is free to use. If you made it all the way through this, thank you, and I hope it helps you. Keep studying and learn.
 
Hey guys,

Joining this conv way too late, but what the hell.

First things first though..

Just what is it like in China???

Wing Nut



Whispering Death said:
We're in a trend in world government for more and more power over its citizens.

We fought World War 2 to end totalitarianism only to find it's been a cancer that's been growing in our own country since about 1917.

It's just sad that in some ways America is no longer the "home of the free" as much as it is the "home of the free-er."

At least it isn't like China.
 
Whispering Death said:
ha ha ha China.

Really though bulldogg, how have you not been put in some kind of a chinese concentration camp with your web-viewing activities being so un-communist?

Ha,

:cens: .. I'ts just not like that over here. The websites are blocked. I've not known them to come and get you for trying to access them though. They've never come to get me. Doubtful they would be watching sites in English anyway. Blocked for sure. Would someone really spend their time checking up on the people who hit them?

Wing Nut

phoenix80 said:
they hang every one who even offends a minor crime, right?

Um.. No..

I have no idea where you got that. I have friends who have been in Prison for more than a minor crime in China (chinese) and they have not been hung thus far.

Major crimes like Rape do bring on a death sentence. So does murder afaik. I have friends who are police. Give me a few days and I will ask them.

Yes they are free to talk about it. I have also talked with them about the treatment of prisoners. Thats not all the gory bloody grizzle we are all led to believe either... :-(

Wing Nut
 
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Missileer said:
While this is a form of spying by your parents or Government, it's not meant to gather data on you for doing you harm. When there is a string of data, whether it comes from a cell phone or computer, that meets the "filter" criteria that "tags" a user who intends to do harm to our citizens, it is monitored over time and if the information is needed by the FBI to build a case against a terrorist, then their telephone is tapped. Tapping is not done at random, there has to be a good reason to suspect that person of meaning to do harm

ohh,,,I didn't know,,,cause you know,,, Bulldogg is just crazy, we only had about 1 hour to research about the topic and another 1 hour to write essay. So we were lack of information. When i get home, I'm gonna research and write it again, maybe,,,ehehehe

Wing Nut said:
Hey guys,
Joining this conv way too late, but what the hell.
First things first though..
Just what is it like in China???

Well, I've never heard of wire-tapping or seveillancing, but I actually did heard of Chinese government looking at our E-mails from Japan, China is against Japan and ya,,, you know, but I don't know if it's true. Also some websites such as yahoogeocity is blocked by government and we can't look at it.
 
Wouldn't it be more sensible to over estimate the "enemy" than to Under estimate them?

Wing Nut

Dear Mod's.. Just had a boot up the arse about double posting from Bull dogg. I'll watch out for it from now on.





bulldogg said:
My point is that although it is a comforting thought to think of the terrorists arrayed against the west are holed up in a cave in some remote mountaintop with smoke signals and hiding from predators, it is only a bed time story. The people at the top are millionaires and they have some very sophisticated equipment and are not stupid. To underestimate them and denigrate them to the level of cavemen hurling stones against the juggernaut of western military might is foolish and self-deceiving and to what ends? Better to accept the reality of the situation in my opinion. My uncles who were cops used to tell me that "the only thing society has going for it is that 90% of all criminals are idiots." Well these guys aren't idiots or we would have caught them by now, eh??
 
Wing Nut said:
Wouldn't it be more sensible to over estimate the "enemy" than to Under estimate them?

Wing Nut

Dear Mod's.. Just had a boot up the arse about double posting from Bull dogg. I'll watch out for it from now on.

It feels so weird typing at same room and talking on the internet not face to face hahahahhahaha
 
Curtailing

Okay, Now I have finally caught up with all of the posts.

Bull Pups, I am impressed with what you put down.

I do find though, not being American I do not really have a full understanding of what is going on. TO be honest I have never even visited the county. I would assume, although it takes the name "land of the free" It is like most other countrys in the world such as my home land of England.

I have also found that through my American friends I have differing accounts of what was going on and what is going on. I remember I was on the phone two two guys in New York (this is just over a year ago now) They are a couple. Living in the same house, on seperate phones via the same line. Now one of them was describing that living in New york was like living in a police state, the other was saying not much has changed from before 911 and they live in the same house and same area. If Two people give such a differing oppinion of what is going on there. I find it hard to figure out what is going on there from 2nd, 3rd, or 4th hand parties.


Another think I have found out thanks to living and having friends in various countries that things like the news... as much as we like to think is pure and true get's horribly altered once it changes from one country to another. I hear news from US and UK friends about China for example which I know not to be true.. (at least not to the degree stated in the foriegn countries). On the flip side, I hear news about England and the US here and when I check with friends and family in those places it is generally once again not as it was laid out in the other country.

Becuase of this, I find it hard to really know who or what to believe any more.. I have found both news in china about western countries (to use china as an example) to be wrong. and I have found news in the west abotu china that is wrong. So I generally try to find the middle ground as some sort of guestimation as to the real situation and then leave it at that.

So when it comes to things like The US government enguaging in domestic spying we will have a hard time finding out - being that we are outsiders to both america and the middle east - what exactly is going on.

Phone tapping could save a city from a disaster but we have to look how it is done. If they are using a gizmo that picks up words that a related to terroism then there could be a lot of problems becuase of the way we talk casually.

i.e.

I call up a friend and talk about the movie we saw last night.

"Hey... did you see that film last night?"


"yeah! it was the bomb ,the..[click conv starts being recorded becuase of the word bomb] blowing up of the new york underground after releasing a canister of anthrax... man suck a good idea"

"yeah who would of thought of that? anyway I gotta go grab dinner, bye"

"Bye"

Buzzers goes off becuase of the word bomb, and because the first part of the conversation is missing (the important part stressing they are talking abotu a film) alarm bells go off and these people get taken in. They are confused and frightened and being held without certian rights (if I believe the rumours) They will not really have a clue why they are being questioned about bombing and anthrax and the new york underground and it would be doubtful that they would have been told that they had a phone tap so they would not think of relating it to the movie. Thus they are held and interrogated (in a nice and gentle way of course) for how ever long the US can hold terror suspects.

This is not a good thing. It is very stressful on the people and families involved and can cuase some back lash from the family members afterwards.

if they are tapping numbers that are found on known terrorists phones, laptops etc... and recording the whole conversations then there is less chance of mistakes being made.



What has been the main cause of changes in power in countries? If I remember rightly in just about every country in the world, if the people feel they are too supressed they will find a way to uprise and over through the government.

Of course the government has to take some measures to improve safety for their country. But could taking it too far end up causing the countries own peple to turn on the goverment?

Wing Nut
 
To: All Bullpup(s)

One of the things you MUST remember is that ALL countries spy on countries they consider to be "enemy" states. Further, there is a certain amount of "internal" spying that takes place to uncover criminal or illegal activities. Not one single country anywhere in the world is completely free of observation (spying) in one form or another.

When any country has democratic freedoms there are laws enacted to protect civil rights. What that means, is that things like wiretaps can not be placed by ANY government agency unless there is probable cause (proof) that the wiretap is "reasonable" and "warranted" in face of the of the intrusion into the life of one of our citizens.

What I pointed out to bulldogg in a personal message was the following:

I had information that you may not have had access to. We have almost uninterrupted talk shows where "talking heads" discuss everything under the sun. One of the most popular subjects seems to be "Bush watching" (or bashing in some cases).

A short time after Bush admitted he had signed an Executive Order authorizing wiretaps on US citizens there was a show where members of congress stated publicly that administration officials had briefed them about the Executive Order and that they concurred with the reasons why this order was issued. They further stated that there were recurring updates during the entire wiretap operations. This ensured that there were no unreasonable intrusions where there was no reasonable cause. The congressional members represented both parties (Bi-partisan). I can't for the life of me remember just exactly who they were so I can't give you a reference.

Since the "probable cause" for the wiretaps were based upon interceptions of phone calls "FROM" known AlQaeda operatives "to" US citizens, there was every reason (based upon phone call content) that US citizens were aiding and abetting terrorists against their own country.

One of the statements that was made, was that because of the Executive Order wiretaps, information WAS discovered which resulted in the discovery of AlQaeda plans that were stopped thus saving human lives.

Along with this information, many people forget that congress passed a resolution that "instructed" (requested) the President of the United States take whatever action (within the law) was necessary to protect the United States and our citizens here and abroad. Another item that is often "overlooked" by Bush bashers is that the President has at his fingertips a whole host of powers from the "War Powers Act". (WE WERE ATTACKED ON 9/11 BY A FOREIGN GROUP).

What you may NOT be aware of (since you're newbies to this forum) is my opinion of our president. I DON'T LIKE HIM. As a veteran of 20+ years of service to my country I take seriously the civil rights (and their protection) that I spent the best years of my life defending.

bulldogg wanted us to act as a buffer against which you will bounce your opinions and he wanted us to point out deficiency in your arguments. I will ALWAYS try to make sure that I don't find fault if you don't have ALL the information you need to make an informed response.
 
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Good post, Chief. I think that there are controls for Congress to limit a President's power even within the War Powers Act, which I need to rehash, since I'm getting confused as to what it encompasses. With all the hot air coming out of Washington from both sides of the aisle about who can do what when, I'm wondering how far a President can go and with how much authority.

Wing Nut said:
i.e.

I call up a friend and talk about the movie we saw last night.

"Hey... did you see that film last night?"


"yeah! it was the bomb ,the..[click conv starts being recorded becuase of the word bomb] blowing up of the new york underground after releasing a canister of anthrax... man suck a good idea"

"yeah who would of thought of that? anyway I gotta go grab dinner, bye"

"Bye"

Also, remember not to walk into an airport and yell to your friend, Jack, "hi, Jack.";)
 
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Which part do you think is overestimating because I know that the Chinese have a massive computer and internet censor network that reads EVERY single SMS, cell phone call, and email and scans for key words. If the word pops up the communication in question is then forwarded to one of over 20,000 "technical policemen" who read the message and determine the course of action. If China can do this I know damn well the NSA with its listening posts around the globe is more than capable of performing the same task on any electronic communication.
 
In the middle of a phone conversation and you say the word bomb and it starts recording. No phsyical wiretap. Just I dont see how it could be done. Cell phones are a completetly diffrent beast though,
 
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