Does democratic china produce Hitler? - Page 7




 
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Boots
 
April 20th, 2006  
Ollie Garchy
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by loki
I admit this [trade barriers] sounds tempting. But I doubt it can be implemented. The west has been preaching liberalization of trade for years. And the only parties that might propagate something as "backwards" as that are on the far left and I don't like the other things they offer. I guess so do you, especially concerning foreign policy.
Hi Loki,

Western states use sanctions or trade barriers for a variety of reasons. Normal power politics, for example, influences the flow of armaments to China, Iran and other countries. International agreements (like Wassenaar) theoretically inhibit western states from sending a wide range of finished military goods to the Developing World. If we in the west actually want to limit the damage brought by our military systems, why not adopt a similar policy for environmental and humanitarian reasons?

Yes, our economists and elite generally preach "trade liberalism". I actually agree. Trade (not just in theory) leads to wealth and a general improvement regarding the general quality of life. Look at Europe between 1947-1970. What a boom period! The leftist and nationalist extremists in our societies are therefore quite wrong.

I nevertheless think that a Wassenaar-style system should control regular trade until we can ensure relatively sane industrial policies in China or India. Here is an example. It does not make any sense to eliminate national steel capacities by purchasing Indian substitutes. A poor labour policy and basically no environmental laws keep prices low. Not only does this policy constitute unfair competition, for both our citizens and those of the Developing World, but it could lead to a massive shift in the industrial power balance.

After WWII, the Allies met in Berlin to plan the industrial castration of Germany. The victorious powers understood that dual-use capacities ultimately meant real military power. While the original conceptions died in planning, owing to the massive economic crisis facing European society, the Germans and French got together and instituted the Coal and Steel Union--a control mechanism that permitted both states to protect domestic steel-making and thereby avert the trade wars that had led to regional friction and ultimately massive and destabilizing German dominance.

Why not use these systems today? They worked in the past. How about a "Global Industrial Union" that forces the Developing World (ie. China and India) to import greater quantities of goods produced in America and Europe? The Germans in 1950 decided to adopt the Coal and Steel Union even though it theoretically lowered potential output and lessened the chances for dominance. Unbridled capitalism can be a really bad thing. [If we already have these types of systems, please offer a few links...I am not an economist...anyway, I still say "screw the Austrian School"]
April 20th, 2006  
loki
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ollie Garchy
If we in the west actually want to limit the damage brought by our military systems, why not adopt a similar policy for environmental and humanitarian reasons? [...] How about a "Global Industrial Union" that forces the Developing World (ie. China and India) to import greater quantities of goods produced in America and Europe? [...] If we already have these types of systems, please offer a few links..
I don't know of any such system and I doubt such a system can/could coexist with the WTO, because one of the fundamental principles of the WTO is the most-favored-nation clause, meaning in each member state every other member-state gets the same treatment concerning customs duties...

I still think its an interesting idea. It would stop the decline of western economies, meanwhile IMO it would definitely not rank behind the WTO-system in terms of global responsibility, people in less-developed countries would profit much more from every foreign investment. Yet I believe something like that would be extremely hard to implement, because neither would (transnational) companies cooperate wholeheartedly (obvious) nor the administration of the countries concerned. There would have to be a central organisation to closely monitor i.e. the tax legislation of each country, to ensure that higher wages aren't actually channeled back to the the companies in some way (i.e. tax abatements, subsidies, cheap energy/ressources/realties,...). It would also have to ensure that safety at work and environmental protection are actually enforced on the spot.

And there would still be enough ways for companies to avoid the system. Just imagine a german company has a bicycle factory in Bombay, India. Lets say they pay the average worker about 200$ a month. Considering that 40% of the population have less then 1$ a day thats a good salary I guess. Now lets assume the west conjointly introduces the system you propose and the Indian government actually agrees to introduce labour laws, etc. and a minimum wage, adjusted according to purchasing power parity.... maybe $500 a month. Now maybe the company has a housing project nearby for its employees. Maybe the company decides to increase rents from $25 to insane $300 and whoever moves out looses his job somehow. I don't think any employee would report this because nobody wants to loose a well-paid job and hey, they got a $25 raise at least. Now things like that are pretty hard to prevent unless you introduce a world-wide gestapo-state I guess.
April 20th, 2006  
Ollie Garchy
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by loki
I don't know of any such system and I doubt such a system can/could coexist with the WTO, because one of the fundamental principles of the WTO is the most-favored-nation clause, meaning in each member state every other member-state gets the same treatment concerning customs duties...
Thanks, I can see the complexity. How about only allowing the importation of a certain percentage...ie. controlling the influx of cheap commodities? My problem is that this stuff gets confusing relatively quickly.
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Boots
April 21st, 2006  
yingying
 
bulldogg said that
Quote:
A wise man once said that you learn more from mistakes than from success so I would ask why one would not welcome someone showing them their mistakes?
Whatever , let them enjoy their ignorance again.
And let the stupid goes on.
April 21st, 2006  
bulldogg
 
 
That's the spirit.
April 21st, 2006  
Ollie Garchy
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by yingying
bulldogg said that Whatever , let them enjoy their ignorance again. And let the stupid goes on.
Qualification: Ok buddy, if the ignorance you speak of is not in reference to "us", the following post should be ignored. If it is, fine, read on.

Quick definition of terminology: "We" are ignorant? If you are referring to me, again, fine. If you are referring to the "West", I think that you need a refresher.

Summation of the Problem and Hypothesis: The Third World likes to ride the magical mystery bus. Having given the world basically ZERO in technological terms, I would like to point out a few German accomplishments over the last several hundred years. My hypothesis is simple: China gave the world basically nothing that even remotely compares to Europe. I am going to discount paper, china and gunpowder because it cannot be proven that these developments actually flowed to Europe. These "achievements" are like the wheel...important but not considered the defining technologies of the 21st Century. Anyway, the Egyptian, Persian, Judaic, and Helenistic worlds created the breadth of our culture. These are those which you seek to copy. (unless you want to copy Islam...which is highly unlikely).

Recent German Technological Advances:

1. The combustion & diesel & electrical engines
2. Magnetic recording & microphone
3. Dynamo generators
4. Rocketry
5. X-rays
6. Aspirin
7. Refrigeration
8. The first programmable computer
9. The television & cathode ray tubes & flourescent tubes
10. Clocks & balance springs

This is only a short list of hundreds of possibilities. I am discounting many, many breakthroughs in history, political science, medicine, physics, chemistry, psychiatry, etc. Can you even list 10 Chinese achievements? What about cultural achievements? If I add all of Europe & North America, the list would take a lifetime to type.

Conclusion: Sure, we are ignorant. We have achieved nothing. Right. Sure. I say: Look in the mirror...the scars of ignorance, brought by thousands of years of stagnation, will stare you in the face.

Advice: If you want to seriously consider Chinese culture superior to that of the west, hoot some more crack.

[I am not a western "flamer" who will "kow-tow" (hey, something Chinese) to an oriental mass.]
April 21st, 2006  
loki
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ollie Garchy
Thanks, I can see the complexity. How about only allowing the importation of a certain percentage
Thats forbidden, too. See http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/WTO#Prinzipien - prohibition of quantitative limitations.

Regards, loki


P.S.: the first working combustion engine - Samuel Brown (english), first magnetic recording - Valdemar Poulsen (danish).
And calling all that stuff "recent" advances is a euphemism - the most recent of those is still 50 years old. Those were the days.
April 21st, 2006  
bulldogg
 
 
Cheers Ollie, I did not know about #8. Fascinating.
April 21st, 2006  
Ollie Garchy
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by loki
P.S.: the first working combustion engine - Samuel Brown (english), first magnetic recording - Valdemar Poulsen (danish).
And calling all that stuff "recent" advances is a euphemism - the most recent of those is still 50 years old. Those were the days.
Loki, thanks for the link. But, really now, my last post was an extremely quick response to the crudity of our Chinese "friends". I only looked at a few websites...the list is an amalgum of sorts. The errors, if any, are not mine. Let us not move away from the matter under discussion; namely, the issue of China. I posed a question that no person seems willing to tackle: what have our Chinese "friends" done for western civilization? Even Hitler's Germany, as seen in the list I posted, offered at least some technological advantages for homo sapiens. And, this is after all a thread comparing China with Nazi-Germany...at least in terms of dangers to the global community.
April 21st, 2006  
Ollie Garchy
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bulldogg
Cheers Ollie, I did not know about #8. Fascinating.
Bulldogg, see the following links:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/06/02/zuse_computer/

http://www.idsia.ch/~juergen/zuse.html

http://www.pbs.org/nerds/timeline/elec.html

http://www.primidi.com/2004/06/07.html

It is fascinating, isn't it.

As far as the other stuff:

"The American Samuel Morey received a patent on April 1, 1826 for a "Gas Or Vapor Engine". His first (1862) engine with compression having shocked itself apart, Nikolaus Otto designed an indirect acting free piston compression-less engine whose greater efficiency won the support of Langen and then most of the market, which at that time, was mostly for small stationary engines fueled by lighting gas. In 1870 in Vienna Siegfried Marcus put the first mobile gasoline engine on a handcart."

and,

http://german.about.com/library/blerfinder.htm