Does democratic china produce Hitler?

CABAL said:
First of all, foreign investment is not sex. And second of all, people in Asia is not a group of children in service for sexual services. Once again, an absolutely terrible metaphor.
Well thats the definition of a metaphor, its about similarity not identity. I think the similarity he wanted to point out: people in misery will do whats necessary to survive. Be that sewing together sport shoes in a sweat shop 14 hours a day or working in coal mine without any protection of labour.

"The market will regulate it for the good of all"-rhetoric doesn't change the fact that TNCs are the ones to profit from it first and foremost, europeans and americans pay the price and people in the developing world are lucky if they get a small slice of the cake.



CABAL said:
Your statement about China and India as a de facto slave society is quite interesting. I've heard these type of arguements from far right leaning Marxists, Communists, and Socialists. Ollie Garchy, are you a Marxist?
Do you happen to be called McCarthy? I think if one favours state interventionism in certain situations doesn't make him a "commie". Unregulated Capitalism sometimes doesn't work out, thats known at least since the great depression.


Ollie Garchy said:
In my opinion, the Anglo-Saxon countries fought two world wars against Germany to eliminate that country's serious potential for regional and international trade dominance. Forget the moral excuses. The Anglo-Saxon states feared that future developments would enhance Germany far beyond their own capacities and capabilities. They responded with war. Like you accurately point out, the national interest motivates action.

I do not necessarily support such a narrow policy, and am generally pissed off that the Anglo-Saxon countries successfully masked their Realpolitik with a veneer of morality.
Well on the other hand today people say "Its the oil stupid" and totally neglect the presence of moral motives which doesn't do justice to it either.

I think your argument is quite right concerning the 1st WW. I dont think fear of trade dominance played much of a role in WW2 though as Nazi Germany was striving for autarky anyway.
 
If we're going to talk about Economic policies then we'll have to talk Macro-Economics.

For goodness sakes, do you actually saw the economic state of what China and India was before foreign investment began pooring in?

The standards of living was absolutely terrible. Besides, I've been in India and China before. As foreigner, my first impression of China would be a huge sweatshop operation. I was wrong. As a matter of fact the government impose strict health regulations and wage requirements. If several private companies were able to get away with it, they're obviously breaking Chinese law.

If you're referring to hordes of slave labor, you're referring to the sweatshops in South Asia and Southeast Asia.

Remember, although China is privatizing, most of its large firms are state regulated. The reason why Chinese goods are artificially cheap because of the under-valued Yuan or RMB, the Chinese Currency. Factory workers in China are able to afford to purchase goods, that is why Foreign firms open up shops in China because the labor force can AFFORD it. The next time you complain that Chinese goods are too cheap because of slave labor, go check the foreign exchange rates from Euros to Yuan because this part is self-explanatory.

China is not a free market system. Just recently the Chinese Government announced macro-economic control to put restraints on unfair labor practices, sexual discrimination in work places, pollution, and corporate corruption.

India and Vietnam has not introduced this system and unfortunately sweat shops appear everywhere in these countries. Another problem is child labor in South Asia. Trust me, the average working conditions in China are much higher than in India or Vietnam. You can count on that, I've been to all three countries last year.
 
Last edited:
CABAL said:
If we're going to talk about Economic policies then we'll have to talk Macro-Economics.

For goodness sakes, do you actually saw the economic state of what China and India was before foreign investment began pooring in?

The standards of living was absolutely terrible. Besides, I've been in India and China before. As foreigner, my first impression of China would be a huge sweatshop operation. I was wrong. As a matter of fact the government impose strict health regulations and wage requirements. If several private companies were able to get away with it, they're obviously breaking Chinese law.

If you're referring to hordes of slave labor, you're referring to the sweatshops in South Asia and Southeast Asia.

Remember, although China is privatizing, most of its large firms are state regulated. The reason why Chinese goods are artificially cheap because of the under-valued Yuan or RMB, the Chinese Currency. Factory workers in China are able to afford to purchase goods, that is why Foreign firms open up shops in China because the labor force can AFFORD it. The next time you complain that Chinese goods are too cheap because of slave labor, go check the foreign exchange rates from Euros to Yuan because this part is self-explanatory.

China is not a free market system. Just recently the Chinese Government announced macro-economic control to put restraints on unfair labor practices, sexual discrimination in work places, pollution, and corporate corruption.

India and Vietnam has not introduced this system and unfortunately sweat shops appear everywhere in these countries. Another problem is child labor in South Asia. Trust me, the average working conditions in China are much higher than in India or Vietnam. You can count on that, I've been to all three countries last year.

I accept your perspective and conclusions. It is still however true that a Chinese skilled worker receives far less in terms of pay than his or her counterpart in Europe...even when working for a western company.
 
aren't you? judging from all that you have said under this thread.

Hitler-strangled-cartoon.jpg


Good move, amer, russia
 
Last edited:
CABAL said:
As a matter of fact the government impose strict health regulations and wage requirements. If several private companies were able to get away with it, they're obviously breaking Chinese law.

If you're referring to hordes of slave labor, you're referring to the sweatshops in South Asia and Southeast Asia.
I was referring to developing countries in general, be it China, India or the Ukraine. I agree that chinese are probably better off than many others. They have a government that understands the importance of "moderate wealth for all" to prevent social turmoil. (actually thats the name of their 5-year-plan I believe)

CABAL said:
Remember, although China is privatizing, most of its large firms are state regulated. The reason why Chinese goods are artificially cheap because of the under-valued Yuan or RMB, the Chinese Currency. Factory workers in China are able to afford to purchase goods, that is why Foreign firms open up shops in China because the labor force can AFFORD it.
From what I know the ones that can afford western goods are part of an urban middle class that is maybe 200-300 million people (guesstimate). That is a huge market but its less than a quarter of the population. Their standard of living is not the one of "the work force" especially in rural areas. Next time you're there ask a construction worker if he plans on buying a Volkswagen.

I know about the undervaluad Yuan and related problems. I think thats why the nominal BSP/capita is ~1500$ but with PPP its more than $5000.

----

Yingying said:
Ollie Garchy make me believe nazi are still alive in germany.
What did he say lately that is so terrible to justify such a comparison? His first post isn't very friendly but its a bit late discussing that isnt it. The rest here is factual discussion on trade policy.... and a pinch of culture chauvinism. :mrgreen: Anyway... judging from your hard-to-understand posts here I'd be surprised if you didn't get him wrong on most occasions. You're probably mad at him for the wrong reasons alltogether. No offence meant though, I know (from japanese) that asian languages are just a whole new ballgame.

The third flag is Great Britain by the way.

Regards, loki
 
Last edited:
CABAL said:
I As a matter of fact the government impose strict health regulations and wage requirements. If several private companies were able to get away with it, they're obviously breaking Chinese law.

Remember, although China is privatizing, most of its large firms are state regulated. The reason why Chinese goods are artificially cheap because of the under-valued Yuan or RMB, the Chinese Currency.

Factory workers in China are able to afford to purchase goods, that is why Foreign firms open up shops in China because the labor force can AFFORD it.

The next time you complain that Chinese goods are too cheap because of slave labor, go check the foreign exchange rates from Euros to Yuan because this part is self-explanatory.

China is not a free market system.

Just recently the Chinese Government announced macro-economic control to put restraints on unfair labor practices, sexual discrimination in work places, pollution, and corporate corruption.
You are out of your depth Cabal.

I work with insuring compliance and perform due diligence investigations on contract for foreign and joint venture firms all over China. I have been living here and working here for over four years now.

1.) There is no enforcement of the labour laws. Any reports of enforcement are a show just as the song and dance routines they put on at regular intervals to demonstrate how they are "cracking down on IPR violations". Private firms, SOE (State Owned Enterprises), Joint Venture firms... doesn't matter they all are breaking the laws but then if you follow Rouseau's logic and the logic of the Chinese system there is no law being broken because they do not agree with it.

2.) You are half correct about the under-valued yuan being the source of cheap price of Chinese goods. You have ommitted from the equation Chinese factory labourers abhorently low wages. Factory workers make on 400-500 yuan a month and have only 1-2 days off a month and work 10-12 hour shifts. They live on site and cannot leave factory grounds without permission. This is a sweat shop.

3.) Factory workers in China are absolutely not able to purchase the goods they are producing. Where in the :cen: did you get that load of crap? Party central?? The people buying the goods made and imported here are the white collar workers of the city who make 10-20 times the wages of the factory workers and peasants. And this portion of society is only 10% of the whole, however since we're dealing with 1.3 billion people you still have a market for these goods of 130 million or roughly half the potential but not actual domestic market of the US. They set up shops here because of the low yuan and the low wages means they can manufacture a t-shirt here for a total cost of less than one dollar which will retail for 30 US dollars. Profit margins.

4.) Correct, China is not a free market system.

5.) "Just recently" when was this? And what is your source so that I can fairly and accurately explain to you the difference between what China says and what really happens and why.
 
It should have been titled, "Would a democratic China produce another Hitler". Grammar... :roll:
Its a hypothetical Tom... but yeah, you're right.
 
who is offtopic, is that you were offtopic by saying offtopic.
true, i was really tired of talking to someone(bulldog) who has nothing to back them up, which mean gibberish. all they do is to play around the words.
Well, let me see: China produce just one bulldogg full of gibberish.:angel:
 
A coward's words. Meet me in person if you want to attack me as a person and not argue intellectually about something. I am more than willing to travel. I grow very weary of your crap and we can very easily overcome this sense of invulnerability the internet has bestowed upon your person.
 
achinese said:
who is offtopic, is that you were offtopic by saying offtopic.
true, i was really tired of talking to someone(bulldog) who has nothing to back them up, which mean gibberish. all they do is to play around the words.
Well, let me see: China produce just one bulldogg full of gibberish.:angel:
Nothing to back up what? Could you quote some of his unproven statements?
 
Back
Top