Disgusting British Government Policies

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From various government papers released after WW2 is one of the worst and most disgusting British government policies of WW2


While the German Army were rampaging through Europe, senior staff at the FN factory in Belgium escaped to Britain along with plans for various prototype weapons.

British government were warned that there were a number of brand new FN built Mauser rifle and stocks of ammunition. Numbers vary between many hundreds and many thousands of rifles, and thousands of rounds of ammunition. The FN staff strongly suggested that the rifles and ammunitions stocks were recovered, transported to Britain before the Germans took over the factory.

A recovery operation was planned but stopped by a senior government minister with the statement, “We cannot allow those rifles in the hands of the public, leave them where they are.”

I often wonder how many Allied Troops were killed with those rifles.
 
It all sounds so easy, but at the time all the Armies apart from the German one where in head long retreat or busy surrendering. Now know one was sure just where our troops were or the Germans. Our troops mainly marched back to Dunkirk with little food and water, just how do you think they would have removed tons of weapons and ammunition. Radio communications were in those days very primitive and most of the messages went by motor cycle courier, but in France in 1940 on the retreat it would have been hard for them to find the right units.
 
From various government papers released after WW2 is one of the worst and most disgusting British government policies of WW2


While the German Army were rampaging through Europe, senior staff at the FN factory in Belgium escaped to Britain along with plans for various prototype weapons.

British government were warned that there were a number of brand new FN built Mauser rifle and stocks of ammunition. Numbers vary between many hundreds and many thousands of rifles, and thousands of rounds of ammunition. The FN staff strongly suggested that the rifles and ammunitions stocks were recovered, transported to Britain before the Germans took over the factory.

A recovery operation was planned but stopped by a senior government minister with the statement, “We cannot allow those rifles in the hands of the public, leave them where they are.”

I often wonder how many Allied Troops were killed with those rifles.


I agree with LeE on this one, given the state of the British and French forces at the time it would have been almost impossible to have moved that quantity of material anywhere by road or air, so unless it was possible to have removed the weapons via a nearby port (as happened in Norway) they would have been better off just destroying the factory and moving on.

As far as how many allied troops were killed by those weapons, it would be impossible to tell however it must also be remembered that thousands of Allied rifles, guns and machine guns and vehicles were captured at Dunkirk and in the fall of France, Belgium and Holland that the output of one factory in Belgium would have been negligible.
 
I agree with LeE on this one, given the state of the British and French forces at the time it would have been almost impossible to have moved that quantity of material anywhere by road or air, so unless it was possible to have removed the weapons via a nearby port (as happened in Norway) they would have been better off just destroying the factory and moving on.

My point is being altogether missed, I agree it would have been impossible to transport the rifles and ammunition back to UK, and would have been sensible to blow the whole lot up. However, my point was the attitude of a Government Minister who was adamant that the British Government cannot allow those weapons in the hands of the publc, and would rather that the enemy take over those weapons then allow them into Britain. Even in times of extreme emergency, the British Government were (and still are today) paranoid about weapons in the hands of the public.
 
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My point is being altogether missed, I agree it would have been impossible to transport the rifles and ammunition back to UK, and would have been sensible to blow the whole lot up. However, my point was the attitude of a Government Minister who was adamant that the British Government cannot allow those weapons in the hands of the publc, and would rather that the enemy take over those weapons then allow them into Britain. Even in times of extreme emergency, the British Government were (and still are today) paranoid about weapons in the hands of the public.


I really would like to see some form of documentation on this one as I really do have reservations about how concerned the government was with civilians getting guns given the seriousness of Britain's predicament at the time.
When you also consider that they were at that stage arming civilian groups such as the home guard something just doesn't line up.
 
The whole area was in a state of confusion, there was little to no radio contact with the Battalions in France and Belgium and most of the contact was through dispatch riders and many of those ran into German patrols as no one was sure just were the front was. Now in m,any of the countries that were over run by the Germans there had been a strong 5th column, and those people would have pointed out those who had designed the guns and supplied them with all the information that they would have required to make the weapons them selfs if they so wished.
 
I really would like to see some form of documentation on this one as I really do have reservations about how concerned the government was with civilians getting guns given the seriousness of Britain's predicament at the time.
When you also consider that they were at that stage arming civilian groups such as the home guard something just doesn't line up.


I will try and find more details of this paper.


British Governments have rarely been blessed with common sense, such as when the Pro-Soviet Minister of Trade, Sir Stafford Crippsof the Labour party, made Soviet Russia a gift of a Rolls Royce Nene RB41 jet engine, that was reverse engineered and fitted to the MIG15. Stalin, when he heard of the gift asked, "What fool gives away his secrets?"

Or

The Britsh government descision to sell off its carrier fleet before the Falklands War, despite protest from the Royal Navy. The Falklands War emphasised the need for a carrier fleet, resulting in the proposed contruction of two Queen Elizabeth class carriers.


The British firearms control act of 1920 was enacted as a direct result of the 1917 Soviet Revolution. British Government were terrified that communism would spread to UK by disgruntled British Troops returning from WW1 to the so called “Land fit for Hero's.”

This is the information I have so far received.

Details of this episode is in, “Recollections of a rebel.” written by Lord Robert Boothby.

I did however have a few errors in my post, the weapons were situated at the Antwerp docks, not at the FN Factory. British Government were contacted by British Army officers who strongly suggested that these weapons were shipped to Britain as soon as possible, who were of the opinion, these weapons could mean the difference between victory and defeat. Lord Boothby was dispatched by Churchill to review the situation at Antwerp. Lord Boothby duly arrived in Antwerp, viewed the weapons and confirmed the suggestions made by British Officers.

I have more information following regarding this episode, which I will post as soon as it becomes available.
 
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The following was sent to me by a very good friend and student of military history.

Your question about the Mauser rifles that were rejected by the British Government in 1940 is interesting and reminded me of that disgraceful episode that I had not thought about for years.

It is such an unlikely story on the face of it that I can quite understand why it might be regarded with skepticism. I think, therefore, that I need to explain the background so it will be seen that it is reliable.

At the outset let me say that I have some back up for this but it might need a long search to find it, so what follows is from memory. There might therefore be some inaccuracies like exact dates, but otherwise it is an accurate report of what I read at the time.

Let's start with the events of 1939-40. The period from the declaration of war in September 1939 to the German invasion of Europe in May 1940 was known in Britain as the "phony war" because there was not much action going on. The British knew they were up against it because of two decades of
disarmament and inadequate defense spending following the horrors of WW1, and that they were poorly prepared to take on the Germans.

It might not be well known even to veterans of WW2 that the British Government tried to get the owners of firearms to give them to the State, presumably for guerilla warfare should that be necessary. In any case, except for rifles that could be used for sniping there's not much else that
could be done with a motley collection of small arms. They found, however, that there was not remotely enough from that source because of two decades of civilian disarmament following the Firearms Act of 1920 and subsequent amendments.

It should not be forgotten that the British Army was very small at the time and the stock of weapons was not adequate to repel an invasion. Just why the army had so few weapons considering the huge volume left from WW1 is something I have never seen explained. No doubt they foolishly destroyed them after "the war to end all wars" but maybe somebody can enlighten me.

At some point, I'm not sure when, it could have been later, one solution was the lend lease agreement with the US. But before that, if memory serves, an appeal was made in the US for civilians to contribute private arms "for the defense of British homes" I think it said. Several
shiploads were sent, just dumped en mass into the holds.

In the meantime other sources were sought. The BEF ( British Expeditionary Force ) had a small force in France. It's intelligence officers had gotten wind of some Mauser military rifles in Holland. Winston Churchill sent Bob Boothby to investigate. He located a big quantity ( don't know how big ) stored at Antwerp or Rotterdam or both, complete with bayonettes and
1000 rounds of ammo per rifle. They were available if a price could be agreed. The BEF officers told Boothby "You had better get them. We might soon need them at home." Obviously they had a clearer idea of what was to come than the politicians.

But when Boothby returned to London he was told that the rifles were not needed and there was no money anyway. A few weeks later the Germans invaded and got the rifles.

Aside from the criminal stupidity there are two questions. First, why would they refuse a substantial quantity of military rifles when they were seeking arms from any and all possible sources ? Second, why would government decline the rifles when Churchill had sent Boothby to find them
? My history knowledge is not too exact, so it could be that Churchill had enough authority to send Boothby looking for them but had not yet been appointed Prime Minister and thus lacked the authority to force the purchase. Maybe somebody more knowledgeable can supply the answer to that.

But whatever the truth of that, the basic fact remains that the rifles were available but were declined in the face of threat of invasion by a vastly more powerful foe at the time.

That's the basic story. Now let's look at the sources. The story was published by "Handgunner" magazine, that's the British "Handgunner" not the American one. It was published by
Jan Stevenson who wrote and uncovered some amazing stuff. Until I find that particular issue I can't say when it was published but it would have been late 1980s/early 90s, as Bob Boothby's memoirs were published in 1986 I think.

"Handgunner" was a first class publication, and wrote more about the politics of gun control in the UK than anyone. It was the first to expose the SA80 debacle in a lengthy two part article. That brought it into conflict with government and it was pretty much closed down for a year. It was a small publication, so presumably that and other harassment by the State forced it to close it's doors not long after.

"Handgunner" got the story from Bob Boothby's memoirs published in 1986 and published it's article because it thought the story worth repeating to a wider audience, particularly those with an interest in such things.

Which brings us to Lord Robert Boothby, generally known as Bob Boothby. Those old enough to have been young in the UK in the 1950s and 1960s will remember him. He was a politician of the Conservative Party, but was a household name because of his outspoken attitude and renegade
nature. He was, you might say, one of those larger than life "characters."

Because of his public profile he got a lot of exposure, mostly radio in those days before TV became universal. Although it is a long time ago I remember him well, and my memory is that he struck me as the type of guy who could be believed. In fact it was his blunt fondness for telling it like it is that made him a renegade and not always popular in his own party.

He published his memoirs in 1986. I think it is called "Recollections of a Rebel" which tells you what sort of character he was. I think he died shortly after in 1988. He said that he expected that story would be seized upon by the media because, he said, "It was the most disgraceful episode in my long public life because it might have made the difference between victory and defeat." But, he said, "Not a word, the conspiracy of silence was complete."

Anyhow, Churchill obviously knew him well enough to entrust him with that expedition. Unfortunately it is unlikely that any evidence exists outside his story. It would have been nice if the BEF intelligence officers had been named as witnesses but I suspect not. On the other hand I have not seen his book so there might be more info in there. I think it is true. There is no reason to think otherwise, and it is consistent with the attitude of successive British Governments that disarmament of civilians is more important than anything else including the risk of invasion.

Anyone who doubts that should look at the suggestion by three senior officers in the 1980s I think, that some civilians should be armed with rifles suitable for sniping, and that they should be encouraged to practice and become proficient. Admiral Hill-Norton was one, can't remember the
others. While I would rather treat that as a separate item if you like, if I can find the stuff that is, the bare bones is that the Soviet threat was at its height and it was known that the Soviets emphasized parachute training and the use of Spetznatz forces. It was expected that in the event of the sudden outbreak of hostilities Special forces would be dropped by air and landed from submarines to attack vital installations like dams. Such installations are often in remote areas where the small and
thinly stretched army could not defend at short notice. It was recognized that only those living in those areas could mount any sort of defense and would have the advantage of knowing the area intimately and most importantly knowing everyone else who lived there. It was further recognized that the only credible thing civilians could do against special forces would be to provide accurate long range rifle fire. It was squashed by the police, no doubt acting on orders from government along the lines of "can't let people have rifles, not good for public safety, don't
y'know." The defense of the realm is not a good enough reason for civilians to have rifles.

That's why I believe Bob Boothby.

Hope this helps. Anyone who still doubts it can contact Jan Stevenson or
get Bob Boothby's book.
 
It is an interesting story but it does seem to have changed from being one of the government refusing to take the rifles back to Britain because of fears that they would fall into civilian hands to one of the government being unable to purchase them at a reasonable price.

I would argue that in the short term there may have been a need for these rifles but in the long term they would have been dead money as spare parts and ammunition would have been in short supply due to the factories being in enemy hands and any manufacturing of the required items would have reduced the priority of standard issue British rifles that factories were already tooled to make.

The defense of the realm is not a good enough reason for civilians to have rifles.
In all honesty and sarcasm aside I agree with this statement wholeheartedly, these boards are full to capacity with people have watched Red Dawn one too many times and think the local school football are going to rise up and defeat the invaders.
Here is a thought that seems to constantly escape the thoughts of your average camo-wearing weekend warrior if the "invaders" are good enough to have beaten your "professional standing army" then chances are Joe Blow and his trusty SKS probably isn't going to achieve anything more than a quick death and some nasty reprisals.
 
It is an interesting story but it does seem to have changed from being one of the government refusing to take the rifles back to Britain because of fears that they would fall into civilian hands to one of the government being unable to purchase them at a reasonable price.

I would argue that in the short term there may have been a need for these rifles but in the long term they would have been dead money as spare parts and ammunition would have been in short supply due to the factories being in enemy hands and any manufacturing of the required items would have reduced the priority of standard issue British rifles that factories were already tooled to make.

In all honesty and sarcasm aside I agree with this statement wholeheartedly, these boards are full to capacity with people have watched Red Dawn one too many times and think the local school football are going to rise up and defeat the invaders.
Here is a thought that seems to constantly escape the thoughts of your average camo-wearing weekend warrior if the "invaders" are good enough to have beaten your "professional standing army" then chances are Joe Blow and his trusty SKS probably isn't going to achieve anything more than a quick death and some nasty reprisals.


The long term service life of the rifles wouldn't have been an issue as they would have been replaced by new rifles as they became available, and possibly issued to Home Guard units. However, the point is, those rifles and the ammunition could have made a difference at a time when they were needed most, until the output at the RSAF at Enfield Lock, BSA, Fazakerley, Maltby and Poole were stepped up.

I do not believe for one minute that funding was not available for those rifles, a few million quid here or there would not have been an issue whatsoever. I for one (knowing first hand British government paranoia regarding civilian owned firearms) firmly believe that the rifles were turned down because of some other political agenda, including distrust of civilians getting their hands on weapons.

The major difference between the movie Red Dawn and 1940 in UK, Red Dawn was fiction, the risk of invasion in 1940 was very real. As for your comment of a quick death and nasty reprisals, at the time there were many ex WW1 soldiers in UK, although they weren't 18 or 19 year olds, they were still quite fit and had the knowledge and ability to give any invader a bloody nose.

Remember the French, Dutch and Norwegian partisans, how many of those had formal military training apart from very minimal training by SOE and OSS operatives? A small number of partisans tied up a huge number of valuable fighting men, another point to remember, a Norwegian rifle club caused so many casualties during the invasion that the German Army had to pull back and regroup. I for one would never underestimate or dismiss small groups using Guerrilla tactics. One only has to study the Boer War, Boers gave the British Army so much problems, none of which had any form of military training but they were excellent horsemen, riflemen and above all, mobile.

After 1940 arms dumps were situated all over the UK, as there was no paper trail many of those dumps are still hidden, as those entrusted with the dumps have either died or have failing memory. I recollect one or two of those weapons dumps being found accidentally causing all kinds of panic among the local constabulary.
 
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This is an interesting thread, well conducted. My only contribution is to agree that their is no reason to doubt Bob Boothby's tale. He was indeed a very high profile television personality as well as a high profile politician, if a little flamboyant.

His politics suffered late in his career by his very close and contraversial attachment to Ronnie Kray, the homosexual half of the Kray twins, whose criminal army controlled London in the 60's, and who died in Broadmoor after being convicted for the murder of a rival gang member. He walked into the Black Beggar pub in east London and shot him between the eyes for having referred to him as 'a fat poof'. For a number of years this overt act produced no witnesses bold enough to come forward, because the twin's grip on London was so strong and silence prevailed.

Besides Lord Bob Boothby, Hollywood celebrities, including such as Sinatra etc., indulged the profile of the Krays.
 
I think that every spare ship or boat that could float was working at Dunkirk, now we could have lost an army yet had a range of new rifles, I wonder which is more important. Now those ships pulled a third of million men of the beaches of Dunkirk which out weighs any new designed of rifles .
 
I agree, I think had it been possible to get the rifles they would have but they had other more pressing issues to deal with at the time.
 
Interestingly Churchill is reputed to have said to an aid, immediately after his impassioned speach about 'fighting them on the beaches', 'God knows what we will fight them with, we have disarmed the great British public'.

Further to this the rifles issued to the Home Guard were springfields and US made Lee Enfields - these were marked with a painted band to indicate they did not use standard ammunition. There were a number of Americans in London who formed their own Home Guard unit and purchased a number of 'Tommy guns' - I seem to remember there were rumours of Mafia links.

Finally the Aux Units authorised by Churchill were in the majority not soldiers but people who knew the land. They were issued with the latest equipment including plastic explosives and a wide variety of available weapons.

In the end it is more likely prevarication by the politicians who no doubt had other things on their mind that meant that these weapons were allowed to fall into the Germans's hands. It is a pity that the Army officers didn't jus blow up the factory - As a final point the Germans continued to manufacture Browning pistols until the factories were overun in Belgium - most of these weapons were issued to the SS
 
Interestingly Churchill is reputed to have said to an aid, immediately after his impassioned speach about 'fighting them on the beaches', 'God knows what we will fight them with, we have disarmed the great British public'.

This is an interesting statement, which just about says it all regarding British Government paranoia about firearms in civilian hands.

Further to this the rifles issued to the Home Guard were springfields and US made Lee Enfields - these were marked with a painted band to indicate they did not use standard ammunition.


My Father was a member of the Home Guard. Originally units were issued broomsticks, such was the scarcity of firearms availble. When they became available, P17's and BAR's in 30-06 and a number of Lee Enfields were issued. My Father was issued a BAR, while my Grandfather was issued a Number 1 Mk3* Lee Enfield and 50 rounds. The US built Number 4 Mk1 Lee Enfield (built by Savage) used the standard British Mk7 174 grain 2450 fps rimmed 303 ammunition.


Finally the Aux Units authorised by Churchill were in the majority not soldiers but people who knew the land. They were issued with the latest equipment including plastic explosives and a wide variety of available weapons.


These were the arms caches distributed around the UK, having no paper trail, many were still in place long after WW2. Those entrusted with the caches as I have stated before have since died or have failing memory.


There does seem to be some confusion regarding the time line of those weapons at Antwerp Docks and the Dunkirk evacuation. By the time the Dunkirk evacuation was underway, the rifles were already in the hands of the German Army. From what I gather, Boothby went to Antwerp well before Belgium was overrun, so there could have been time to ship the rifles to UK. As Winston Churchill was not at the time Prime Minister, he didn't have the power to demand or order that the weapons were obtained and shipped. As Bootby stated in his book regarding the weapons, "It was the most disgraceful episode in my long public life because it might have made the difference between victory and defeat."
He would never have made such a statement if 1) it was not possible to get the rifles to UK, and 2)and that the rifles ended up in enemy hands. Which in turn brings me back to Churchills statement, 'God knows what we will fight them with, we have disarmed the great British public'
 
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