Originally Posted by brinktk

I'm not going to sit here and argue. I've already made my stance clear on the issue and I already said that they should have stopped as soon as they realized what they were doing.

Senjo, you keep making these black and white statements about the issue...but it's not black and white. Did you know that the accounts from the Iraqis was not backed up by ANY forensic evidence? Actually, the forensics backed up the Marines account of what happened. Did you know that when you clear a house, especially ones of those size that your vision is severely impaired AFTER you throw the grenade in? A house the size they cleared takes about 30 seconds to clear. Speed and violence of action is about your best bet at survival. THEY DID TAKE FIRE FROM THE HOUSE! So they cleared it. The line I draw is when they went from the first to the second house. They had to of known what had just happened...This should have made them at the very least weary and more alert to the possibility of civilians on the battlefield... Of course, I WASN'T THERE, so I will never know for sure. I leave it open because I understand how these things can happen. You call it a massacre, as if they lined them up and shot them in the back of the head, I call it overreaction/ voluntary manslaughter. Yes, they should have done time...If it's any consolation you should know that in the years after this incident every single time a civilian is killed in Iraq there is a 15-6 investigation on the incident. There were several incidents this last deployment where we were attacked and had the enemy in our sights, but held our fire because of potetial collateral damage...It's all because of this one incident. Had my platoon killed just ONE civilian on this last deployment regardless of the circumstances, then I would be looking at an investigation and a potential court martial. So don't act like nothing was learned from this. And also don't ever lump me in with the enemies I have fought for the past almost 9 years. Don't act like you have even a clue as to the evil that I faced on not just the battlefield, but in the streets of areas that I patrolled. I don't know how many countless Iraqi's I helped personally pull out of the Euphrates that had been murdered by these extremists with their hands still bound behind their backs...men, women, and children. Their only transgression being they were Shi'a. How many times I've had Iraqi's come to me personally for help and protection because we DO the right thing. How dare you lump me in the same category as them while you sit in the security of your home from behind a screen having never been a situation like this and then have the audacity to claim moral superiority based off your obviously inexperienced dealings with these matters. A democratic judicial system is supposed to be innocent until proven guilty. That's the system that I defend and it is obvious that the prosecution was not able to convince a jury of these Marines peers that they were guilty. That's the way it works.

You can THINK what you want. But honestly, you have no idea what you're talking about. Combat isn't like the movies, or even like YOU imagine. 90% of the time noone even knows what the hell is going on. It is truly a fog. Without training most people would be overwhelmed by it and simply end up dead. We have battle drills that teach to us to react specific ways to a number of potential combat incidents. This is tempered over time with experience in the military and expericence in combat. This SSG had never even been in combat before this incident. If you knew anythig about tactics you would know this is EXACTLY the by the book way you deal with an incident like this. I.E. complex ambush, assault into it. That's what this guy did and in 99% of incidents he would have been lauded as a hero for saving lives, instead, the insurgents provoked an over reaction from these Marines and they got exactly what they wanted. A huge propaganda victory for their cause. It doesn't exonerate the action, but let's pretend we have some common sense and can use our brains on this. Where's the moral outcry for the thousands of atrocities that terrorists have done on the civilians of Iraq. I was with one of the last combat units in Iraq and I could literally see FEAR in the eyes of the Iraqi's that we were leaving them. They constantly asked us if we were staying or leaving because they knew if we left, things would get horrible again. I've seen this same fear in Fallujah and Ramadi years ago when those places were overrun with these psychos, the very same ones who could murder entire families for simply waving at us.

But you will never know. You will never understand. You will never comprehend. I will leave it at that.

Amen.

You call it a massacre, as if they lined them up and shot them in the back of the head

Hang on that did almost happen before the 'house clearance'

Five Iraqi men, a taxi driver and four teenagers, were ordered out of their car and shot dead in the street, principally by Staff Sgt. Frank Wuterich.

It may be well worth reading up on the other parts of the investigation as well

the first investigation, under U.S. Army Maj. Gen. Eldon Bargewell, along with interviews with eye witnesses. It noted that the "official investigation has already resulted in the removal of Lieutenant Colonel Jeffrey Chessani, the commanding officer, and Captain Luke McConnell and Captain James Kimber, two company commanders, from their duties. Bargewell's investigation found that:

"Statements made by the chain of command during interviews for this investigation, taken as a whole, suggest that Iraqi civilian lives are not as important as U.S. lives, their deaths are just the cost of doing business, and that the Marines need to get 'the job done' no matter what it takes. These comments had the potential to desensitize the Marines to concern for the Iraqi populace and portray them all as the enemy even if they are noncombatants."[38]...

The U.S. Marines investigation has avoided public pronouncements. Nevertheless, on June 17, 2006, the New York Times reported that "Investigators have also concluded that most of the victims in three houses died from well-aimed rifle shots, not shrapnel or random fire, according to military officials familiar with the initial findings."[39] Many of those killed have wounds from close-range fire, and their death certificates record "well-aimed shots to the head and chest" as the cause of death.[39]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haditha_killings

Originally Posted by RayManKiller3

There should be no excuses even in battle for the killing of bystanders, especially with a rifle.

You are a company commander and your enemy chooses to withdraw to a village and fight on from here. There are civilians in the village. Your battalion commander will tell you that it is necessary to defeat the enemy, otherwise the tactical advantage will be lost. What do you do?

And what about international law - can I attack. I know that civilians will be killed.

Originally Posted by senojekips

That's what soldiers are expected to do. Soldiers have no special right to feel "miffed" just because their enemy shoots at them. That's what is expected to happen in war.

Even if those persons within the house were the shooters, nothing gives the soldiers the right to murder the occupants in cold blood. The fact that these persons were obviously not fighters puts it on an even lower level.

bachelor's wives and maiden's children are well trained.

They should send you into urban combat and when you return I guarantee you you will talk differently.

Originally Posted by Der Alte

You are a company commander and your enemy chooses to withdraw to a village and fight on from here. There are civilians in the village. Your battalion commander will tell you that it is necessary to defeat the enemy, otherwise the tactical advantage will be lost. What do you do?

And what about international law - can I attack. I know that civilians will be killed.

Then I shall follow orders while at the same time do my best to ensure less civillian casulties. I will be ready to face whatever consequences (after investigations) that came from my actions and/or orders.

I am not saying I don't understand these situations, I am just saying that trying to excuse it is silly. The investigation is there to determine if appropriate force was used.

I don't believe throwing frags into an unknown rooms is wise to clearing it unless it is certain no civillians are in there.

Originally Posted by RayManKiller3

Then I shall follow orders while at the same time do my best to ensure less civillian casulties. I will be ready to face whatever consequences (after investigations) that came from my actions and/or orders.

I am not saying I don't understand these situations, I am just saying that trying to excuse it is silly. The investigation is there to determine if appropriate force was used.

I don't believe throwing frags into an unknown rooms is wise to clearing it unless it is certain no civillians are in there.

So you'll just knock nicely on the door.
Sorry, chaps, any terrorists in here?

Originally Posted by RayManKiller3

I don't believe throwing frags into an unknown rooms is wise to clearing it unless it is certain no civillians are in there.

Ok, now you reached the the village. How will you clear it.
Your commander just gave you orders to clear all buildings.

Originally Posted by VDKMS

bachelor's wives and maiden's children are well trained.

They should send you into urban combat and when you return I guarantee you you will talk differently.

You should be thankful for the protection that the law gives you, because I strongly suspect that the only reason you have survived as long as you have, is because it's illegal to put you out of your misery.

They should send you off to wherever it is they attempt to put brains in stone monuments.

The thread is not about what I'd do, it is about the cold blooded murder of women and children after the battle. Anyway, with your previously displayed lack of morals and powers of deduction, I wouldn't go making too many assumptions as to what I or anyone else, might do in any circumstances.

You obviously live in some flakey alternate reality.
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Originally Posted by Der Alte

Ok, now you reached the the village. How will you clear it.
Your commander just gave you orders to clear all buildings.

And if you follow orders, there won't be incidents of this type. The Commander said, "Clear the village" he didn't say , "Go in and murder the obviously innocent women and children just for revenge"

This was no mistake, it was deliberate and cold blooded murder and I defy anyone to show credible evidence to the contrary.

Attempts to excuse this animalistic behaviour, only make it worse.

Originally Posted by senojekips

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And if you follow orders, there won't be incidents of this type. The Commander said, "Clear the village" he didn't say , "Go in and murder the obviously innocent women and children just for revenge"

This was no mistake, it was deliberate and cold blooded murder and I defy anyone to show credible evidence to the contrary.

Attempts to excuse this animalistic behaviour, only make it worse.

I think this is the bit people are over looking here, this wasn't done during the invasion of Iraq it was done during the occupation. They are not taking villages as they were already taken 2+ years previously it is closer to a Lidice type incident than a combat related one.

Whole lot of WTF in this thread.