[QUOTE=senojekips;618338]
How you arrived at this conclusion just leaves me scratching my head. I would be more inclined to say that all it has done, is further confirm to the Iraqi people that US troops are no more than poorly controlled and undisciplined thugs, backed by a chain of command that is willing to tacitly turn a blind eye to their cowboy behaviour, whilst paying minimum lip service to the truth of the matter.
[QUOTE]

Not from the specific incident, but from the policy change and change of approach that the US military started taking in the wake of the incident. Read what I wrote, I thought I made that perfectly clear.

The Iraqi people did warm up to us over time. Sure, we were an occupying force. Still, for the most part, they came to realize we were a stabilizing force. Read up on the coin strategy we took up during the surge and why the Sunni awakening in Al Anbar happened. We started living IN the peoples neighborhoods with them so we could get to know everyone in the region. We LIVED with the IA, IP, ESU guys that we trained. Instead of kicking in doors and raiding houses we started knocking on doors and engaging the public. It was hard at first, but over time most Iraqi's were glad the security issue was coming under control and realized we were just trying to help. In the end, most of them didn't want us to leave because they feared the IA and IP were not yet ready to take the reins.

You can really judge the peoples sentiment based off the kids reaction to you. When I was in Al Anbar around the time of the Haditha incident the kids wouldn't even look at us. They would stand on the side of the road and pretend we weren't there or throw rocks at us. This last time I was there the difference was extreme. We couldn't go through a neighborhood without the kids coming out to wave, make the sign for a soccer ball, or the sign for candy. We would stop for a break and they would flock around our vehicles. That's probably not something you're going to see if the people hate you and are afraid you're going to kill them like a barbaric hooligan.

But I digress, I guess I have rose colored glasses from all that time I actually spent over there. Must be an effect of my brainwashed cowboy tendencies.

Originally Posted by senojekips

Yes,... I know, this is only a very small percentage of all the troops, but what must be remembered is that, it's the bad events that stick in the memory of the people concerned.

No, it's the bad events that are covered in the media. All the good things they did (and there were many good things) were almost never mentioned.

Originally Posted by VDKMS

No, it's the bad events that are covered in the media. All the good things they did (and there were many good things) were almost never mentioned.

This is 100% true. If the media stops being a negative nancy so much, then people wouldn't think that Iraq and Afghanistan came out so horrible. The media loves and preys on bad news, because that is what keeps most people's attention.

If they can for once try to do something helpful.... It is thanks to the media that all the negative is stuck in their minds, because they won't show anything positive about our intervention. We could of things better, but hindsight is the only way to really know what could and should have been done. Kudos to both of you.

Originally Posted by VDKMS

No, it's the bad events that are covered in the media. All the good things they did (and there were many good things) were almost never mentioned.

Well, most people including the Press, look at the proportionality of the acts in question, in respect to their deviation from what might be considered as reasonably "normal" behavior. Giving out candy and footballs to small children is hardly newsworthy, when compared to what clearly appears to be the deliberate murder of 24 innocent unarmed civilians including women and children as an act of retribution, then trying to sweep it under the rug and when finally forced to actually do something about it, making a whitewash of the court case.

.

Originally Posted by brinktk

Even though this sentence is terribly thin, the ramifications for the remainder of the military have been felt. The controversy in the wake of this incident did in fact force policy makers and commanders to re-evaluate their approach to the situation in Iraq. The US military took a more hands on approach with the populace and the ROE got very restrictive. Essentially, soldiers and Marines in the wake of this incident were put on VERY short leashes...some fallout was felt, still, I believe a lot more good came out of the situation because it forced the Iraqi people and the US military to deal with one another. I strongly believe that this helped in allowing a majority of the Iraqi population to see Americans as what we had wanted them to see us as in 2003, unfortunately the fruits of that labor were not seen until 2007.

Ultimately, I believe a lot more Iraqi lives were spared as a result of this incident. It is unfortunate that the families of the Iraqi's killed will be disappointed with the result of this sentence. At the same time, they can be grateful that the event itself forced the US military to look at its' policies and change them, probably saving thousands or tens of thousands of lives as a result.

Maybe I am missing something here but there is still a part of me that says this is not enough.

Certainly the rule changes may have achieved everything you suggest I am not going to argue with that as I have no evidence or experience to say that it didn't however they were changes that in light of the event had to happen anyway what concerns me is that these changes have taken the place of justice for those killed and their families.

Basically its like saying "well we killed your kids and half your family my bad, oh and by the way we letting those that did it off scott free but on on the bright side everyone in town is getting a Christmas card this year and free ham for Ramadan".

Some people here fail to understand the difference in justice in peacetime and during war. If we would treat all crimes during a war the same as it would have happend during peace time then the courts would have enough cases for at least 100 years. Almost every coalition partner in Iraq had some "irregularities". The more troop the more "irregularities". (Did you know that 39 countries supported the "American" war with troops?).
Laws of war (like the Geneva conventions) are made to make war more "civilised". You have to comply but your enemy doesn't care. Some people say that you are as guilty as your enemy when you don't comply. That's like trying to win a race clean while the others are doped. Your chances of winning are small. And yet that's what the coalition forces did in Iraq, they fought clean. No one just went into a crowd and started shooting at civilians unlike their enemy.
The thing in Haditha is very sad. The Americans are gone now but the killings of civilians stays. I'm an advocate for justice, but justice for everyone, not only one side or one country. Did the vietcong leaders punished their "irregularities"? Or the Russians in Afghanistan, Chinese in Korea or Vietnam?
In war justice is done when the ones who are responsible are captured or killed. And sometimes you kick in the wrong door and innocent people get hurt or die. But when you are not allowed to make mistakes you never catch those guys and many more civilians get killed.

Originally Posted by VDKMS

Some people here fail to understand the difference in justice in peacetime and during war. If we would treat all crimes during a war the same as it would have happend during peace time then the courts would have enough cases for at least 100 years. Almost every coalition partner in Iraq had some "irregularities". The more troop the more "irregularities". (Did you know that 39 countries supported the "American" war with troops?).
Laws of war (like the Geneva conventions) are made to make war more "civilised". You have to comply but your enemy doesn't care. Some people say that you are as guilty as your enemy when you don't comply. That's like trying to win a race clean while the others are doped. Your chances of winning are small. And yet that's what the coalition forces did in Iraq, they fought clean. No one just went into a crowd and started shooting at civilians unlike their enemy.
The thing in Haditha is very sad. The Americans are gone now but the killings of civilians stays. I'm an advocate for justice, but justice for everyone, not only one side or one country. Did the vietcong leaders punished their "irregularities"? Or the Russians in Afghanistan, Chinese in Korea or Vietnam?
In war justice is done when the ones who are responsible are captured or killed. And sometimes you kick in the wrong door and innocent people get hurt or die. But when you are not allowed to make mistakes you never catch those guys and many more civilians get killed.

We're not interested in what others do, That's half the reason we oppose their ideologies, we are the people who make all the fuss, insisting that we are "better" than they are.

If we followed your example, civilisation would just revert to a race to the lowest common denominator. You are 180 degrees off course with your blinkered Neanderthal approach, one of those who would be pleased to see the world revert to the barbarity of Medieval times and beyond.

Originally Posted by senojekips

We're not interested in what others do, That's half the reason we oppose their ideologies, we are the people who make all the fuss, insisting that we are "better" than they are.

You should be interested what others do.

If we followed your example, civilisation would just revert to a race to the lowest common denominator. You are 180 degrees off course with your blinkered Neanderthal approach, one of those who would be pleased to see the world revert to the barbarity of Medieval times and beyond.

You missed the point.

Originally Posted by VDKMS

You should be interested what others do.

Not when taking a pro active interest causes more misery than if I do not.

Originally Posted by VDKMS

You missed the point.

No,... I got the point precisely. You just haven't realised that your "reasoning" and social skills are at least 100 years behind those of today's world.

Looks like we're in for another marathon.