Originally Posted by lljadw

Given the past of both countries, I doubt that this would be a wise decision :

1920 : Russians, Poles and Ukrainians killed each other by tens of thousands and joined each other to kill the Jews
1944 was a rehearsal of 1920 :OUN and UPA killed 100000 Poles ( at least ) and the Poles killed 20000 Ukrainians ( at least ) .
The Jews had already disappeared .
There are still people in Poland who want to annex the Western part of Ukraine and there are a lot of Ukrainians who want to kill/expel the Russians living in East Ukraine .

It is interesting as it is an area I know little about historically but given that Poland is the country Ukrainians seem to be heading to I figured they had a more friendly disposition, but given that within the next few days Belarusian troops appear to be joining the Russian land grab it may be a way of limiting their capacity.

Originally Posted by MontyB

The Finns have remained relatively quiet on this matter which given their position and Putin's current random actions is probably the safest thing to do.

I was surprised to read that both Lithuania and Sweden are now sending military equipment to Ukraine, that seems pretty ballsy for Lithuania given its size and location and Sweden seems to be dropping any pretence of neutrality on this as well.

https://www.thedefensepost.com/2022/...-arms-ukraine/

So I guess given Germany and the EU's moves today are we going to see this escalate into something bigger as both sides seem determined to ratchet up the pressure.

And I am not sure what to make of a Ukrainian Foreign Legion, real or publicity stunt?
https://en.interfax.com.ua/news/general/803351.html

And now a silly little ***hypothetical*** primarily because I love irony, what would happen if say Poland moved troops into western Ukraine as "peacekeepers" or to set up a "safe haven" for Ukrainian civilians?

This war changes everything, I suppose. Sweden has also the NLAW anti-tank weapon so I guess we will give some of ours to the Ukrainians. I have argued for giving them the mortar round Strix as well. Ukraine has the mortars that can fire them. We might give them the AT-4 as well.

It will be a pull in Finland later this week, it will be interesting to see what the Finns are thinking about this war and NATO. The Russian threat gets the opposite effect on the Finns and the Swedes. I wouldn't be surprised if both Finland and Sweden joins NATO pretty soon.

I have heard discussions about a no-fly zone in the Western part of Ukraine, but I doubt NATO or EU want to have "peace-keepers" in the Western part of Ukraine. I like the idea, though.

There are a lot of refugees entering Poland, I have seen young men going in the other direction to join the Ukrainian army. I don't want to call them a Ukrainian Foreign Legion.

Russia wants to prevent Ukraine to join EU and NATO, Russia's actions push Ukraine further west. Putin wanted to divide EU and NATO, the opposite happened.

Originally Posted by I3BrigPvSk

This war changes everything, I suppose. Sweden has also the NLAW anti-tank weapon so I guess we will give some of ours to the Ukrainians. I have argued for giving them the mortar round Strix as well. Ukraine has the mortars that can fire them. We might give them the AT-4 as well.

It will be a pull in Finland later this week, it will be interesting to see what the Finns are thinking about this war and NATO. The Russian threat gets the opposite effect on the Finns and the Swedes. I wouldn't be surprised if both Finland and Sweden joins NATO pretty soon.

I have heard discussions about a no-fly zone in the Western part of Ukraine, but I doubt NATO or EU want to have "peace-keepers" in the Western part of Ukraine. I like the idea, though.

There are a lot of refugees entering Poland, I have seen young men going in the other direction to join the Ukrainian army. I don't want to call them a Ukrainian Foreign Legion.

Russia wants to prevent Ukraine to join EU and NATO, Russia's actions push Ukraine further west. Putin wanted to divide EU and NATO, the opposite happened.

Ukraine signed the forms to join the EU this morning so that isn't working out well for Putin either.

Regarding the "safe haven" point, the reason I suggested Poland is that they could do it with the support of the Ukrainian government as a method of protecting the residents of Lvov reducing the humanitarian requirements of Europe, it would also secure land corridors via Slovenia and Poland but with Poland being part of NATO and the EU it provides them with an element of protection (not that I think they would need it against what looks like a very inept Russian army).

Originally Posted by MontyB

Ukraine signed the forms to join the EU this morning so that isn't working out well for Putin either.

Regarding the "safe haven" point, the reason I suggested Poland is that they could do it with the support of the Ukrainian government as a method of protecting the residents of Lvov reducing the humanitarian requirements of Europe, it would also secure land corridors via Slovenia and Poland but with Poland being part of NATO and the EU it provides them with an element of protection (not that I think they would need it against what looks like a very inept Russian army).

That would make the distribution of the military aid to Ukraine much easier for both the NATO/EU and for the Ukrainians

Watching the news on TV I saw a Russian armoured convoy, one of which was flying the old Soviet flag, I guess that shows where their mind set is at and also the armoured Russian vehicle deliberately running over a Ukrainian civilian car, thankfully the driver of the car survived. The Russians have been a pain in the bum for years, quite frankly I hope the Russians have got a ferocious tiger by the tail.

Originally Posted by MontyB

It is interesting as it is an area I know little about historically but given that Poland is the country Ukrainians seem to be heading to I figured they had a more friendly disposition, but given that within the next few days Belarusian troops appear to be joining the Russian land grab it may be a way of limiting their capacity.

The problem is that in Eastern Europe, the past is still dominating the present .I doubt very much that the Ukrainians would be enthusiastic about the arrival of Polish troops in Ukraine,as a lot of Ukrainians fear that these Poles would remain in Ukraine .
Take Lemberg/Lviv/Lvov:
population in 1939 :60 % Poles, 7 % Ukrainians, the rest Jews .
After the war the Poles were deported to Silesia and the Jews had disappeared .
Now the population is 88 % Ukrainian and 9 % Polish .
If the war ends with the defeat of Russia and the collapse of Ukraine, there is a danger ( for the Ukrainians ) that Poland will demand the Anschluss of Lviv to Poland and that the city will become again Lvov .
Ukraine is in the same situation as Poland before 1939 ( Poland was surrounded by 2 hostile neighbours: Germany and the USSR ) :Ukraine by Poland and Russia.
What would happen if Putin proposed to Poland to have back the territories it lost in September 1939 ,if Poland did not oppose a Russian invasion, and if Poland said yes ?
We would have a partition of Ukraine between Russia and Poland .
And, the West would be helpless : a German invasion of Poland is impossible .
And, about the EU sanctions against Russia : these can be effective if everyone is executing them .
But,what about Austria ? 80 % of its gas is imported from Russia .
Will the Austrian government accept the collapse of its economy for the sake of Ukraine ?

Originally Posted by MontyB

Ukraine signed the forms to join the EU this morning so that isn't working out well for Putin either.

Regarding the "safe haven" point, the reason I suggested Poland is that they could do it with the support of the Ukrainian government as a method of protecting the residents of Lvov reducing the humanitarian requirements of Europe, it would also secure land corridors via Slovenia and Poland but with Poland being part of NATO and the EU it provides them with an element of protection (not that I think they would need it against what looks like a very inept Russian army).

The EU has no army, thus I do no see the benefit in this war for Ukraine to become a member of EU .

Originally Posted by BritinBritain

Watching the news on TV I saw a Russian armoured convoy, one of which was flying the old Soviet flag, I guess that shows where their mind set is at and also the armoured Russian vehicle deliberately running over a Ukrainian civilian car, thankfully the driver of the car survived. The Russians have been a pain in the bum for years, quite frankly I hope the Russians have got a ferocious tiger by the tail.

I have looked at that car incident a couple of times and I am dubious of the claims that it deliberately ran over the car as it appeared more out of control than anything else and I also question whether it was Russian as it seems odd for a Russian anti-aircraft vehicle to be driving around Kiev with no other support.
I am leaning toward it being an out of control Ukrainian vehicle.

Originally Posted by lljadw

The problem is that in Eastern Europe, the past is still dominating the present .I doubt very much that the Ukrainians would be enthusiastic about the arrival of Polish troops in Ukraine,as a lot of Ukrainians fear that these Poles would remain in Ukraine .
Take Lemberg/Lviv/Lvov:
population in 1939 :60 % Poles, 7 % Ukrainians, the rest Jews .
After the war the Poles were deported to Silesia and the Jews had disappeared .
Now the population is 88 % Ukrainian and 9 % Polish .
If the war ends with the defeat of Russia and the collapse of Ukraine, there is a danger ( for the Ukrainians ) that Poland will demand the Anschluss of Lviv to Poland and that the city will become again Lvov .
Ukraine is in the same situation as Poland before 1939 ( Poland was surrounded by 2 hostile neighbours: Germany and the USSR ) :Ukraine by Poland and Russia.
What would happen if Putin proposed to Poland to have back the territories it lost in September 1939 ,if Poland did not oppose a Russian invasion, and if Poland said yes ?
We would have a partition of Ukraine between Russia and Poland .
And, the West would be helpless : a German invasion of Poland is impossible .
And, about the EU sanctions against Russia : these can be effective if everyone is executing them .
But,what about Austria ? 80 % of its gas is imported from Russia .
Will the Austrian government accept the collapse of its economy for the sake of Ukraine ?

I have an unrelated question about semantics mainly:
You say in 1939 Lvov's population was 60% Poles, 7% Ukrainian and 33% Jewish, to the best of my knowledge Polish and Ukrainian is a determination of nationality, Jewish is a determination of religion as such that 33% must have either been Polish, Ukrainian or anther nationality.

Regarding Austria, will Austria's purchase of gas keep the Russian economy afloat?
If not then it really doesn't matter what Austria does.

Having looked at more information on this it would appear that the EU has voted unanimously in support of these sanctions which indicates Austria is supporting them and understands the consequences that may come with that support.

What this shows is that if it was Putin's aim to further fracture the western world and weaken it then he has badly miscalculated as the one thing he has done is galvanised the western world into a stronger unit, I would be very surprised if we do not see a number of countries putting in quiet applications to NATO over the next couple of months.

Originally Posted by lljadw

The problem is that in Eastern Europe, the past is still dominating the present .I doubt very much that the Ukrainians would be enthusiastic about the arrival of Polish troops in Ukraine,as a lot of Ukrainians fear that these Poles would remain in Ukraine .
Take Lemberg/Lviv/Lvov:
population in 1939 :60 % Poles, 7 % Ukrainians, the rest Jews .
After the war the Poles were deported to Silesia and the Jews had disappeared .
Now the population is 88 % Ukrainian and 9 % Polish .
If the war ends with the defeat of Russia and the collapse of Ukraine, there is a danger ( for the Ukrainians ) that Poland will demand the Anschluss of Lviv to Poland and that the city will become again Lvov .
Ukraine is in the same situation as Poland before 1939 ( Poland was surrounded by 2 hostile neighbours: Germany and the USSR ) :Ukraine by Poland and Russia.
What would happen if Putin proposed to Poland to have back the territories it lost in September 1939 ,if Poland did not oppose a Russian invasion, and if Poland said yes ?
We would have a partition of Ukraine between Russia and Poland .

I agree with the opening comment, Eastern Europe and the Balkans seem to be hung up on who's family stole a goat from who's 400 years ago, I have no idea why they just cant move on.

However, I don't agree about Poland as its future is now pretty well tied into NATO and the EU which I suspect means more to them than an old city and a few thousand acres of land, if they were to do a Molotov-Ribbentrop type deal with Russia they would lose the protection of NATO and probably EU membership and be left trusting Putin not to want to right the perceived wrongs of the past in a few years.

And, the West would be helpless : a German invasion of Poland is impossible .
And, about the EU sanctions against Russia : these can be effective if everyone is executing them .
But,what about Austria ? 80 % of its gas is imported from Russia .
Will the Austrian government accept the collapse of its economy for the sake of Ukraine ?

The West would be no worse off in that scenario, Poland would be at the mercy of Putin and the Germans could still deal with what appears to be a very substandard Russian military should they keep heading West especially with NATO support.

Further to the discussion on sanctions all of Western Europe have now implemented sanctions with the exception of Serbia and what looks to be Bosnia (not sure on that one), hell even the Swiss are getting in on the action now and they only go where the money is.