Desmond Tutu on Zimbabwe

BritinBritain

Per Ardua Ad Astra
Amsterdam - Archbishop Emeritus Desmond Tutu said on Thursday that Zimbabwe's President Robert Mugabe must step down or be removed by force.

"I think now that the world must say: 'You have been responsible with your cohorts for gross violations, and you are going to face indictment in The Hague unless you step down'," Tutu, a Nobel peace prize winner, told Dutch current affairs TV programme Nova.

Asked if Mugabe, who has been in power since independence from Britain in 1980, should be removed by force, Tutu said: "Yes, by force - if they say to him: step down, and he refuses, they must do so militarily."

Tutu, who was one of the continent's leading voices against the former apartheid regime, said the African Union or the Southern African Development Community (SADC) would have the capacity to remove Mugabe, 84.

"He has destroyed a wonderful country. A country that used to be a bread basket - it has now become a basket case," Tutu said.

Tutu's comments came on the day Zimbabwe declared a national emergency to halt a cholera outbreak that has killed more than 560 people.

Economic meltdown, which many blame on Mugabe, has left the health service ill-prepared to cope with an epidemic that it once would have prevented or treated easily.

Once hailed as a model African democrat, Mugabe has become increasingly criticised, particularly in the West over a worsening political and economic crisis that critics blame on his policies.

International help for Zimbabwe's collapsed economy is on hold while Mugabe and opposition leader Morgan Tsvangirai remain deadlocked over implementing a power-sharing arrangement.

Tsvangirai's Movement for Democratic Change (MDC) party won parliamentary elections while Mugabe was re-elected as president after Tsvangirai pulled out of a two way run-off, citing intimidation by Mugabe supporters.
- Reuters


The sooner the better.

Alex Ogle
Johannesburg - Zimbabwe's cholera crisis is likely to spread in South Africa if conditions do not improve for asylum seekers pouring over the border to escape the outbreak, a leading human rights group said on Thursday.

"The lack of access to sanitation and clean water for refugees" has contributed to an outbreak of the illness across the southern border, Human Rights Watch (HRW) said in a statement.

"Abysmal living conditions for asylum seekers" in the border town Musina is set to "increase the risk that cholera will spread on the South African side," said Washington-based HRW fellow Rebecca Shaeffer.

500 asylum seekers a day

"Many asylum seekers are living completely without shelter in Musina," she said, adding that the refugees - who are pouring into South Africa at a rate of 500 a day - are living "exposed to the weather and without regular access to toilets, showers, food and clean water".

Some 1 000 asylum seekers are "staying on fenced-in showgrounds in Musina as they wait to lodge their asylum claims, and are fearful of arrest and deportation if they leave," said Shaeffer.

Roughly 200 to 400 refugees are arrested and deported back to Zimbabwe from Musina each day, she said.

South Africa currently reports 455 cholera cases, including seven deaths.
Treatment centres set to be overwhelmed

Health authorities have set up five cholera treatment centres along the border to handle the influx, but are set to be overwhelmed if the disease spreads.

In a perpetuating cycle, the worse the outbreak becomes in Zimbabwe, the more likely it is that refugees continue to cross the border to escape, fuelling the strain on health services in neighbouring countries.

In Zimbabwe, the breakdown of the nation's infrastructure has helped cholera thrive.

The outbreak has been fuelled "by the total breakdown in the health care system," said Shaeffer.

Government and UN figures show that more than 560 deaths and 12 500 cases have been recorded since August.

National emergency

On Wednesday Zimbabwe's state-run Herald daily declared the outbreak a national emergency and appealed for international aid to tackle the epidemic.

The World Health Organisation estimates that 4.5% of people who have contracted cholera in Zimbabwe have died.

The normal fatality rate, HRW said, is below one percent, when infection is properly managed with oral rehydration salts and medicines.

"Cholera outbreaks have repeatedly occurred in recent years, as (Zimbabwe's) water and sanitation systems have broken down," HRW said in a 2008 report on Zimbabweans seeking refuge in South Africa.

"Electric power outages and shortages of chemicals to treat water have interrupted water supplies and compelled individuals to drink untreated water contaminated with faecal matter.

"At least six million people in Zimbabwe - about half the population - do not have access to clean water or sanitation," the report said.

Neighbouring Mozambique reported this week 278 cases of cholera, including nine deaths. Botswana has reported two cases.
- AFP
 
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I think Tutu is correct but the question is whether there is an African country prepared to do it.
 
Yet South Africa has not said to much about him have they, and on the whole are still supporting him and his actions.
 
I think Tutu is correct but the question is whether there is an African country prepared to do it.


I very much doubt if any African country will step in militarily and throw Mugabe out. There has been quite a few African countries that have requested/demanded that UK step in and throw him out.


I know for a fact that there are British forces in the region and such an operation would not be outside the realms of posibility.


Yet South Africa has not said to much about him have they, and on the whole are still supporting him and his actions.

Very much so. The main reason for that is, our ex president Mbeki is related to Mugabe's wife Grace.
 
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I very much doubt if any African country will step in militarily and throw Mugabe out. There has been quite a few African countries have requested/demanded that UK step in and throw him out.


I know for a fact that there are British forces in the region and such an operation would not be outside the realms of posibility.

Yes and I can imagine the whining and bleating from those very same countries about "imperialism" if the British do send in the troops.

Personally while I agree Mugabe sorely needs his views balanced by a few grams of lead placed behind his ear at high speed this is a problem for Africa to sort out and if the people of Zimbabwe are happy to live in some disease infested basket case of a country then it is not up to the world to fix it for them.
 
Yes and I can imagine the whining and bleating from those very same countries about "imperialism" if the British do send in the troops.

Personally while I agree Mugabe sorely needs his views balanced by a few grams of lead placed behind his ear at high speed this is a problem for Africa to sort out and if the people of Zimbabwe are happy to live in some disease infested basket case of a country then it is not up to the world to fix it for them.


The problem is Monty, Cholera which has been spreading throughout Zimbabwe is now spreading to Botswana and South Africa due to a complete and total breakdown of the infrastructure. There is also the danger of the disease spreading internationally.


Mugabe doesn't give a toss, all he cares about is hanging onto power by any means. He's not going to step aside voluntarily.
 
Again this is an African problem, if South Africa wants to get rid of him then go for it I am not going to be critical of them for it otherwise I would suggest that South Africa and Botswana secure their borders and leave Zimbabwe to it eventually:
A) Mugabe will drop dead of something.
B) The country will decided to get rid of him
C) Disease will decimate the place and burn itself out.

Either way I see no reason for British troops (or any other European/American/Commonwealth nation) to risk themselves over some African hell hole.
 
Yep I can see this going that way too.
They ask for British help.
Britain helps. It takes a while.
The Africans cry imperialism.
Britain has to pull out before the mission is complete.
Chaos.
The usual.
 
I suspect the threat of invasion (and subsequent war crimes investigation) would be enough to get rid of Mugabe and his regime, but this is best dealt with by African's to avoid Imperalist accusations. Whether South Africa is 'European' of course is another matter.
 
If Mugabe is to be removed it should either be done by African countries or by the people them selfs. If an out sider steps in then it will cause so many other problems and they will blame the west for all their problems and will claim that their governments can only operate with policies set out by the west. Even if America and other European countries get involved the same thing will be said, and the finger will pointed to America with people saying that they did not like the governments in Afghanistan, Iraq, and a dozen other countries that they have been involved in in some way or other. NO this is an AFRICAN problem and should be sorted by the AFRICAN governments
 
South Africa could roll over Zimbabwe in a couple of days. Unfortunately political cronies look out for each other rather than decide to protect the innocent.

A squadron of Cheetahs dropping fire crackers would probably do the trick. A squadron of Cheetahs dropping stuff that make big holes in the ground would absolutely do the trick.

Hell, a DC-3 dropping leaflets might just work.
 
South Africa could roll over Zimbabwe in a couple of days. Unfortunately political cronies look out for each other rather than decide to protect the innocent.

A squadron of Cheetahs dropping fire crackers would probably do the trick. A squadron of Cheetahs dropping stuff that make big holes in the ground would absolutely do the trick.

Hell, a DC-3 dropping leaflets might just work.

South Africa doesn't have the capability anymore, the SA military is a mere shadow of its former self. What was once the best equipped and best military in the region has gone down hill at an alarming rate, equipment is rusting away due to lack of spare parts, they even closed down the factory that produced their rifles!

There are too many affirmative action senior officers in place, who simply don't have the skills or abilities to run a modern and effective military. I read a report somewhere recently that over 50% of the South African Navy personnel are HIV positive.

Looney Tunes Mugabe has recently stated in his usual moronic ramblings, that the USA and Britain are conspiring with African countries to invade Zimbabwe.
 
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Yep I can see this going that way too.
They ask for British help.
Britain helps. It takes a while.
The Africans cry imperialism.
Britain has to pull out before the mission is complete.
Chaos.
The usual.

This will definately happen. I wonder why Britian and America haven't learned yet. "Those who forget history are condemned to repeat it" not sure who said it, but it is particularly relevant.

13th, you forgot to add that the reason it will take a while is because the limp dick politicians will saddle the military with very restrictive ROE's in order to minimize the political fallout. You know that this problem can be solved by 1 Green Beret "A" team, from about a mile away.
 
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