Denying The Facts

We classified it terror, and not just crime, but we're still questioning his sanity.

I have thought about this from the sentencing point of view. Since the Kingdom of Norway does not allow the death penalty, (and if there ever was a case to deserve it, then this one should be it, in my opinion), and also there is no such thing as life sentence in Norway, the longest prison sentence being 21 years, insofar I have read, it may be actually better if that criminal terrorist would be found both guilty and insane, so that he could be in fact locked up for LIFE in a special high security forensic type of institution for the criminally insane, if there is such a thing in Norway, (just like that guy who tried to assasinate former president Ronald Reagan because he was delusional about actress Jodie Foster, and is now in a forensic psychiatric hospital in the US)...I really don't know, however, how it works in Norway because I haven't studied yet the forensic psychiatric system in Norway...if anything I actually think they will build an institution for that guy just to keep him locked up for life. (Yeach ! Just think of the money spent by all taxpayers on that guy...who I tend to opine will not realistically provide enough useful forensic expertise and/or intelligence information to justify the expense. This may sound cold, but I am telling you...I do tend to personally lean towards agreeing with the death penalty in some specific cases, such as terrorism, serial killers, and sadistic murders committed by psychopathic sexual offenders, as long as it takes place in a civilized democratic country with an advanced system of law and with all due legal process allowed to the person who is a defendant subject to a possible execution, including right to appeal, and with utmost attention paid to human rights.) They may even change some laws around this case.

Attention ! Please note that I have not used the word "psychopathic" lightly or off-handedly, I have actually used it in the forensic sense of the term. I will put in again a link to the wikipedia definition: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopathy , and wish to furthermore clarify that in my opinion not all sexual offenders can be classified as having a psychopathic personality. Also, I wish to further add that it is entirely possible for a person with psychopathic personality to also have a co-morbid mental illness on top of it. I personally wish they would keep that term somehow circumscribed from the current known and classified personality disorders. I also think it is distinct from antisocial personality disorder, although parts of the neurobiology may coincide. I do not have data to offer as an argument. I am waiting to see a real forensic expert opine on this case once the trial starts. I really wish that even if the trial is to be held without the press present, that a special press informing mechanism would exist as part of that court of law, so as the press could get some regular updates about the progress of the trial. I will also put links to the words: forensic, forensic psychology, and forensic psychiatry.
 
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In Norway, death penalty was abolished years ago, and there is no such thing as a life sentence, but you can recieve a maximum penalty of 21 years, with additional prolonged detention.
In theory it can act as a de facto life sentence.
 
You are right, 84RFK. I have found out in the meantime that it is possible for him to get the maximum 21, plus additional "extensions", and this may be the better conclusion than the one with "guilty and mentally ill", because in the latter case the system is build up towards actually releasing those persons sooner or later. In addition to this, I also strongly doubt that Norway will ever think about reintroducing the death penalty.

On the other hand, I feel like saying that it actually makes me sick to my stomach to actually think how MUCH attention to individual human rights will be paid by the Norwegian legal and forensic system in the case of this sadistic psychopathic mass murdering terrorist, and how little attention he paid to the rights and to the lives of those children and other persons he killed. And there is nothing really one can "learn" from this. It was and shall remain an aberration, like all terrorist acts. Just sheer evil destruction one can really never "repair"...:(
 
1. One fact that is not denied in all discussions above is that we rarely understand, or perhaps want to understand religions other than own. Mere claim that all religions lead to the same goal by different road amounts to saying I don't want to know what lies on the other roads.

2. Islam, the religion of the Muslims is not a religion in the sense religion is defined in the dictionary. It does not permit a clergy. It does not have images or deities to worship. In fact the mosque is not a temple. It is a community center where any discussion can take place. In the early days of Islam the Caliph used to run his government sitting in a mosque. A Muslim can say his prayers anywhere - in an aircraft, on horseback in the battlefield, in a temple/church provided he is clean, the place is clean and he faces the Holy Ka'ba.

3. Having said that I do have to accept that various cultures and developments in the march of history has brought in various coloration against which there have been cleansing movement from time to time. We just hear about Wahabism, but this cleanser has been present always.

4. The birth of Shi'ism took place over centuries. This is a pure political divergence which has been exploited by rulers and clerics (not clergy) throughout Muslim history. Obviously adversaries, who are not Muslims, also found this divergence handy to exploit.
 
At the base of all religions are humans, we are well aware how human nature can and will manipulate anything towards an end that suit’s the particular humans doing the manipulating.

Personally I believe Religions are conscious constructs of their practitioners. They are charades, a game at best, and self-deception at worst. It is astounding how people are willing to die for something they know is a fraud.

"The Goliath we all face is the bureaucracy of organized religions. He is the entrenched belief systems which control people and keep them in spiritual darkness. He is the lack of inquisitiveness of members of fundamentalist upbringing. He is the tendency of people everywhere to stand so firmly behind what they have been taught that they will not think independently and ask hard questions. He is the refusal of so many people to question authority and search for answers, even when the evidence can be found." Paul David's and Edward T. Martin, JESUS IN INDIA
 
At the base of all religions are humans, we are well aware how human nature can and will manipulate anything towards an end that suit’s the particular humans doing the manipulating.
Personally I believe Religions are conscious constructs of their practitioners. They are charades, a game at best, and self-deception at worst. It is astounding how people are willing to die for something they know is a fraud.

But, as you said these are your personal beliefs and others have theirs. Until there is some sort of meter or detection equipment that once and for all settle the argument about the existence or non-existence of a supreme being... these conflicts will continue.
In the west we recognize that religious extremist are just that, a small fringe... a caricature of a people and because of that we don't use words or phrases such as, 'christian terrorist'!! The KKK, IRA are some of the smaller groups that committed terrorist actions, as well as large misguided large religious movements... the Spanish Inquisition -the catholics made the Jewish people make a choice between converting from Judaism or dying! One person who used religion to promote his cause in the 1930s used religion to help get his way. He made the following statement, "we are taking these changes to protect christianity. The Americans, British, Catholics and, Jews are trying to corrupt christianity. We have little to say when millions of Lutherans who helped Adolf Hitler to power. Under those situations we divorce religion from the masses who politely go along with the nuts!
Islam has it share of nuts, but check history and you will find all religions or anti-religions all have their fare share of fringe-extremist. How we choose to view the situation is a large factor in how history records it.
 
That's really easy, and it certainly doesn't even take a "smart" person,... just a person who is willing to accept the truth.

(1) When you die, all neurological activity ceases, this is a recognised fact and is used to define the actual point of death. No neurological activity,... no memory.

(2) In 1997-8 I had an extreme allergic reaction to a bee sting and was clinically dead for several minutes. I don't remember seeing, god, or a white light, or having an "out of body experience". All probably because, I was clinically dead.

As for death being "the end of the line". You could certainly convince me, by trying it out,... that, combined with your alleged knowledge that you have retained after death, you can come and tell me all about it. If so I will believe you.
I'd like to share with you something I read that kept me thinking. It was written by Napoleon Hill somewhere in the 1930's and go something like this (I will make it short). When you dismantle a watch and put all the pieces in a box and throw it out on the table, how many times would you have to repeat this until all the pieces fall together to form a workable watch? It can't be done because one piece is missing, it's called order. Every piece has its place and in the case of the watch it was the watchmaker who put all thouse pieces together to get a workable watch. When we see around us , everything has order. Without order no mathematics, chemistry, no functional universe. And, order is made. So, I don't say if there is or isn't something after we die, but will we be aware of it?
 
But, as you said these are your personal beliefs and others have theirs. Until there is some sort of meter or detection equipment that once and for all settle the argument about the existence or non-existence of a supreme being... these conflicts will continue.
In the west we recognize that religious extremist are just that, a small fringe... a caricature of a people and because of that we don't use words or phrases such as, 'christian terrorist'!! The KKK, IRA are some of the smaller groups that committed terrorist actions, as well as large misguided large religious movements... the Spanish Inquisition -the catholics made the Jewish people make a choice between converting from Judaism or dying! One person who used religion to promote his cause in the 1930s used religion to help get his way. He made the following statement, "we are taking these changes to protect christianity. The Americans, British, Catholics and, Jews are trying to corrupt christianity. We have little to say when millions of Lutherans who helped Adolf Hitler to power. Under those situations we divorce religion from the masses who politely go along with the nuts!
Islam has it share of nuts, but check history and you will find all religions or anti-religions all have their fare share of fringe-extremist. How we choose to view the situation is a large factor in how history records it.

Something to remember - the “Spanish Inquisition” was just part of a much larger event, the results of this Papal Decree were just as perverse throughout Europe, although (perhaps) not on the same scale. The Catholic Church did not officially resend the “Inquisition” until well into the 20th Century.
 
This is going to sound a little silly, but most of my life I have oscillated between being somewhat skeptically (due to acknowledging my own knowledge capabilities' limitations) agnostic and being faithful, usually becoming more convinced there IS a God whenever I fell in love and thus feeling the need to express somehow my gratitude to some Supreme Being for the wonderful feeling that came over me.

I have since learned from some studies that one can get a rush of a similar feeling from cocaine, nevertheless I have arrived at the rationally based conclusion, (although admitedly quite possibly logically faulty !), that it is more ETHICAL to encourage humans to have faith and believe in a G-d who seems to have the capacity to deliver to us the pleasurable feeling of Being in Love rather than forgetting about His Grace & attempting to buy cocaine from a lawbreaking criminal fellow human, and thus facing greater risks for possible bankruptcy, public disapproval, loss of political office, or even getting hauled off to real jail for posession, etc.
 
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Interesting point actually, what may be even more interesting is the things no longer mentioned in the news.

After ABB was arrested, the reports about a a man with strong right-wing beliefs, a self proclaimed Christian with somewhat peculiar stance towards the commanments, a devoted Zionist and a Freemason surfaced in the news here.

His actions made no sense, and thus he's been labeled a nutter of some sort.
We classified it terror, and not just crime, but we're still questioning his sanity.
The Freemasons were quick to denounce him from their ranks, and that's the last we heard about the Freemason-connection.
As for the Zionist part.....it got deadly quiet.

So we're left with a lone nutter with Christian belief, and extreme right-wing sympathies...

Not surprised about the Zionist bit. In the US the hard core right wing ultra conservative bible thumpers have a strong Zionist bent. There is some connection in their minds to a Zionist triumph in the Middle East and the rapture... something extrapolated from a literal interpretation of event described in the book of Revelations. (Family of origin were hard core right wing ultra conservative bible thumpers but in my adulthood I have embraced Catholicism)

Religion is a case of mutualism.

It gives to the average punter some solace about death. An inescapable eventuality that only homo sapiens ponder in our free time. We as a species fear the unknown more than anything else, religion makes death no longer an 'unknown'.

For the religion the belief of the punters gives them power that surpasses greed, family bonds, nationalism etc. There is no limit to the power someone can wield in an international religion, crusades, gwot, whatever happens next...

I don't know where this nutter in Norway falls but if he was an unthinking believer the sky's the limit as to how far he would take the tenets of his faith. Hastening the return of Christ/Mahdi is a theme core to both Muslim and Christian alike. Doesn't make him insane, just committed. Being committed to something so esoteric is no different than being committed to the idea of a nation. Honestly, the nation state is no more real than a belief in God/Allah. Both are contrived ideologies devised to ensnare the less empowered into supporting a select few by leveraging their combined weight into what the rulers want.

Nations have only been in existence since just prior to World War I. Science just a hundred or so years more than that. Religions are the oldest but none has more claim to an authority to devise truth. Dying for anything more than the protection of family is stupidity embodied.

Doesn't mean we don't go to war to defend ourselves but don't do it for a President, Pope, Mullah, Supreme AFOTM... do it to protect you and yours from a clear and present danger. If you commit to a fight based on that you will never find yourself disillusioned and second-guessing yourself.

A word of caution for all might be surmised in, 'In ALL things, moderation, even your beliefs.'
 
Not surprised about the Zionist bit. In the US the hard core right wing ultra conservative bible thumpers have a strong Zionist bent. There is some connection in their minds to a Zionist triumph in the Middle East and the rapture... something extrapolated from a literal interpretation of event described in the book of Revelations. (Family of origin were hard core right wing ultra conservative bible thumpers but in my adulthood I have embraced Catholicism)

Religion is a case of mutualism.

It gives to the average punter some solace about death. An inescapable eventuality that only homo sapiens ponder in our free time. We as a species fear the unknown more than anything else, religion makes death no longer an 'unknown'.

For the religion the belief of the punters gives them power that surpasses greed, family bonds, nationalism etc. There is no limit to the power someone can wield in an international religion, crusades, gwot, whatever happens next...

I don't know where this nutter in Norway falls but if he was an unthinking believer the sky's the limit as to how far he would take the tenets of his faith. Hastening the return of Christ/Mahdi is a theme core to both Muslim and Christian alike. Doesn't make him insane, just committed. Being committed to something so esoteric is no different than being committed to the idea of a nation. Honestly, the nation state is no more real than a belief in God/Allah. Both are contrived ideologies devised to ensnare the less empowered into supporting a select few by leveraging their combined weight into what the rulers want.

Nations have only been in existence since just prior to World War I. Science just a hundred or so years more than that. Religions are the oldest but none has more claim to an authority to devise truth. Dying for anything more than the protection of family is stupidity embodied.

Doesn't mean we don't go to war to defend ourselves but don't do it for a President, Pope, Mullah, Supreme AFOTM... do it to protect you and yours from a clear and present danger. If you commit to a fight based on that you will never find yourself disillusioned and second-guessing yourself.

A word of caution for all might be surmised in, 'In ALL things, moderation, even your beliefs.'

Meeh. I'm not religious particulary but given the choices in the region I'll stand with Israel since I know some Israelis and like and respect them. Does that make me a Zionist?
 
Nah, it makes you intelligent. A zionist would link Israel's survival/triumph in the middle east as paramount to the return of Christ.
 
Religion is the pock mark on the face of society's the world over. When will people learn its a political tool and it is still working!!
 
Religion is the pock mark on the face of society's the world over. When will people learn its a political tool and it is still working!!

I would like to add "fanatic" to that. Every religion has and/or had them. They make the trouble. But I must also add that almost every fanatic was once a... moderate.
 
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