In defence of The Pope

Del Boy

Active member
Rory Leishman: In defense of the Pope
Posted: March 31, 2009, 11:28 AM by Marni Soupcoff


Rory Leishman

Pope Benedict XVI seems to be under attack in the secular media. First, newspapers around the world mocked him for suggesting during a discussion of AIDS with reporters: “You can’t resolve it with the distribution of condoms. On the contrary, it increases the problem.”
Then, on Saturday, Agence France-Presse sensationally reported: “Pope Benedict used a nationally televised speech in Angola yesterday to reiterate the Roman Catholic Church’s ban on abortion, even to save a mother’s life.”
According to the official Vatican text of the Pope’s address, he made only one reference to abortion, stating: “How bitter the irony of those who promote abortion as a form of ‘maternal’ health care! How disconcerting the claim that the termination of life is a matter of reproductive health!”
Later, Agence France-Presse reported that Vatican spokesman Father Federico Lombardi had “clarified” the Pope’s remarks on abortion, stating that the Church has always taught that “indirect” abortion is permissible if necessary to save the life of the mother. Lombardi added: “What the Pope said is that the concept of maternal health cannot be used to justify abortions as a means of limiting births.”
Quite so. It is generally agreed among pro-lifers — Catholic, Protestant and secular — that induced abortion is a grievous wrong that can never be justified except if necessary to save the life of the mother.
Meanwhile, the controversy over the Pope’s remark about condoms and AIDS continues. In an editorial, The New York Times contended: “Pope Benedict XVI has every right to express his opposition to the use of condoms on moral grounds, in accordance with the official stance of the Roman Catholic Church. But he deserves no credence when he distorts scientific findings about the value of condoms in slowing the spread of the AIDS virus.”
In support of this argument, the Times editorial stated: “From an individual’s point of view, condoms work very well in preventing transmission of the AIDS virus from infected to uninfected people. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention cites ‘comprehensive and conclusive’ evidence that latex condoms, when used consistently and correctly, are ‘highly effective’ in preventing heterosexual transmission of the virus that causes AIDS.”
This statement is essentially misleading. Despite several decades of “safer-sex” propaganda, the great majority of sexually active people do not use condoms “consistently and correctly.” In an article published in The British Medical Journal, Dr. Stephen Genuis, associate professor of obstetrics and gynecology at the University of Alberta, observed: “In theory, condoms offer some protection against sexually transmitted infection; practically, however, epidemiological research repeatedly shows that condom familiarity and risk awareness do not result in sustained safer sex choices in real life. Only a minority of people engaging in risky sexual behaviour use condoms consistently. A recent study found that ... [e]ven among stable, adult couples who were HIV discordant and received extensive ongoing counseling about HIV risk and condom use, only 48.4% used condoms consistently.”
What about Africa, in particular? Have the millions of free condoms that Western countries have distributed on this continent over the past several decades not at least served to reduce the scourge of AIDS among Africans?
Alas, no. Edward C. Green, director of the AIDS Prevention Research Project at Harvard University, is one of the leading authorities on AIDS. In an illuminating article in First Things, he wrote, “Consider this fact: In every African country in which HIV infections have declined, this decline has been associated with a decrease in the proportion of men and women reporting more than one sex partner over the course of a year — which is exactly what fidelity programs promote. The same association with HIV decline cannot be said for condom use, coverage of HIV testing, treatment for curable sexually transmitted infections, provision of antiretroviral drugs or any other intervention or behaviour.”
Even The New York Times has grasped that condoms are not a cure-all for the AIDS epidemic. In its editorial chiding the Pope, the paper conceded: “The best way to avoid transmission of the virus is to abstain from sexual intercourse or have a long-term mutually monogamous relationship with an uninfected person.”
Pope Benedict could not have said it any better.

— Rory Leishman is a freelance columnist and member of St. George’s Anglican Church in London, Ont.



March 23, 2009

Harvard's Dr. Green on the Pope, Aids, and Condoms in Africa
Dr. Edward Green, Director of of the AIDS Prevention Research Project at the Harvard School of Public Health said, in a interview published today, "I am a liberal on social issues and it's difficult to admit, but the Pope is indeed right. The best evidence we have shows that condoms do not work as an intervention intended to reduce HIV infection rates in Africa." Green went on to say, "[w]hat we see in fact is an association between greater condom use and higher infection rates."
 
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Are we seeing a direct cause and effect between condoms and sexually transmitted diseases, or simply an association? Condoms may be being targeted in countries with a high rate of sexually transmitted disease were they aren't still widely used. Hence condoms may not be actually encouraging casual sex, it's just that casual sex is increasing and condoms are largely irrelevant despite their relative increase because so few people actually use them (correctly or otherwise)


The second point is that African women often have no choice in whether they have sex and condom's may be their only protection against sexually transmitted diseases and unwanted pregnancy. Unfortunately they often don't have that choice either, therefore microbicide's/spermicides may be a better option, but doesn't the RC Church disallow the use of any sort of contraception?
 
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Technically yes, but I guarantee you almost all Catholics ARE using some form of birth control, be it condom, birth control pills, or Plan B...
 
More medieval claptrap visited upon those who can least afford it. It is better that you perhaps contract Aids and die along with your child (if one is conceived).

It's not OK to prevent the birth of a child, even if it might save the life of both the parents and child, however it is quite OK to spread a virulent and as yet incurable disease that has infected 22 million people in sub saharan Africa and is presently responsible for the deaths of over 1.5 million people. http://www.avert.org/aafrica.htm

Some people panic about militant Islam in their country, which is no where near as deadly as this, but then again, HIV/Aids is really only killing "primitive Blacks" in some far away country, so I guess that makes it OK.

I'm afraid the Pope is way out of his depth here and showing an amazing lack of human compassion, all in the interests of his religion. Welcome back to 1509AD.
 
Hardly... If you read the rest of the article, you'll find out that even though Africa does have rather easy access to condoms, the AIDS epidemic is still rampant among Africans. Not to say that condoms shouldn't be used, but recognize that, as the article says, "condoms are not a cure-all for the AIDS epidemic."


Benedict is incorrect in saying that condoms INCREASE the problem, but he is also very right in saying that condoms will not resolve the AIDS epidemic.


As far as your comment on abortion... I'm not quite sure how preventing the birth of a child would save the life of the child? I mean, I agree with abortion because I think it's the parent's right to decide, but I don't understand how it saves the child.



"showing an amazing lack of human compassion" Easy... We're killing babies, we might not need to argue human compassion...
 
More medieval claptrap visited upon those who can least afford it. It is better that you perhaps contract Aids and die along with your child (if one is conceived).

Ah Yes, of course the articles are medieval claptrap, because they do not conform to your all-seeing all-knowing view of the universe. Science is just science. It can neither prove or disprove the existance of a God. The Theory of Evolution is not incompatible with religion; Darwin saw no conflict, despite his great work. He hated any controversy between his work and religion. He understood that Evolution is the How; Religion is the Why. Care to call that claptrap??

It's not OK to prevent the birth of a child, even if it might save the life of both the parents and child.

Haven't bothered reading the article, have we?

however it is quite OK to spread a virulent and as yet incurable disease that has infected 22 million people in sub saharan Africa and is presently responsible for the deaths of over 1.5 million people.

Still not reading are we, or reading with eyes closed.. 1.5 million people. The Pope has not been responsible in any way, and his informed opinion is that of the Harvard expert. If the edicts of The Pope had been followed, this terrible situation would never have been reached.

Some people panic about militant Islam in their country, which is no where near as deadly as this, but then again, HIV/Aids is really only killing "primitive Blacks" in some far away country, so I guess that makes it OK.

Careful, a little racism showing again. We don't panic in our country, even under fire and threat. But we recognise a threat when we see one, being on the front line. Militant Islam is a problem for the world, not just my country. As it happens President Obama said as much himself, today.


I'm afraid the Pope is way out of his depth here and showing an amazing lack of human compassion, all in the interests of his religion. Welcome back to 1509AD.

Well of course, we acknowledge that compared to you towering intellect, the Pope and The Harvard AIDS expert are as nothing, out of their depth.
That much is obvious. Some cultures are welcoming us back to 1509AD, to be sure. You can go there if you wish, it ain't for me.
 
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I'm afraid the Pope is way out of his depth here and showing an amazing lack of human compassion, all in the interests of his religion. Welcome back to 1509AD.

Hey if we had left religion in charge we would never have left 1509 so I guess you can't blame him there.
P.S. Even if you are dirt poor don't forget to send in your 10% the church cant run on faith alone.
 
I read that almost a third of the AIDS transmission in Africa happens due to rape. Don't think condoms will make much difference there.
 
I read that almost a third of the AIDS transmission in Africa happens due to rape. Don't think condoms will make much difference there.

That may be the case but even if your numbers are accurate that still leaves at least 1 million people where they can make a difference.
 
Some people panic about militant Islam in their country, which is no where near as deadly as this, but then again, HIV/Aids is really only killing "primitive Blacks" in some far away country, so I guess that makes it OK.

Senojekips, I think that you'll find that Washington DC has a higher rate of HIV / Aids infection

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/03/14/AR2009031402176.html

This is for a civilised country, which has a supposedly "functioning" medical system, so what chance do most of the African countries have, which lack this infrastructure?

Now I'm not a fan of the pope, but he is entitled to his opinion, which, according to the article has some scientific veracity, so I'm leaning towards this being media distortion to juice up a slow news day.
 
Now I'm not a fan of the pope, but he is entitled to his opinion, which, according to the article has some scientific veracity, so I'm leaning towards this being media distortion to juice up a slow news day.
What you say would be true if it were not for the fact that a large part of the population believes that he interprets the will of the man in the sky who runs their lives.

When a person occupies a position of power, they should not knowingly use that power in such a way as to deliberately encourage millions of people to neglect a simple method of perhaps saving their own lives.

If such a message had been given by any one else they would have been castigated by every civilised country in the world.
 
As far as your comment on abortion... I'm not quite sure how preventing the birth of a child would save the life of the child? I mean, I agree with abortion because I think it's the parent's right to decide, but I don't understand how it saves the child.
And exactly which post were you reading where I said anything about abortion? The debate revolves around the use of condoms,... isn't that just a bit of a clue as to what I might have been talking about?[/quote]
 
Ah Yes, of course the articles are medieval claptrap, because they do not conform to your all-seeing all-knowing view of the universe. Science is just science. It can neither prove or disprove the existance of a God. The Theory of Evolution is not incompatible with religion; Darwin saw no conflict, despite his great work. He hated any controversy between his work and religion. He understood that Evolution is the How; Religion is the Why. Care to call that claptrap??

Darwin described himself as agnostic

Still not reading are we, or reading with eyes closed.. 1.5 million people. The Pope has not been responsible in any way, and his informed opinion is that of the Harvard expert. If the edicts of The Pope had been followed, this terrible situation would never have been reached.

So we promote the use of condoms in every western country in the world, yet we allow someone to condemn it in Africa?
 
Ah Yes, of course the articles are medieval claptrap, because they do not conform to your all-seeing all-knowing view of the universe. Science is just science. It can neither prove or disprove the existance of a God.
It cannot prove or disprove anything that only lives in the minds of men. Did you ever even stop to think how it is impossible to prove or disprove something that is no more than an idea in the minds of some persons?
The Theory of Evolution is not incompatible with religion; Darwin saw no conflict, despite his great work. He hated any controversy between his work and religion. He understood that Evolution is the How; Religion is the Why. Care to call that claptrap??
Yes I do. Because, to use your usual circular argument, you can't prove that it's not, can you?

Careful, a little racism showing again. We don't panic in our country, even under fire and threat. But we recognise a threat when we see one, being on the front line. Militant Islam is a problem for the world, not just my country. As it happens President Obama said as much himself, today.
.
I don't think that you would know Racism if it bit you on the butt. I never said a thing about "race", is this another of your diversions? We've been through the old Racist/Homophobe/Antisemite or whatever label you care to hang on those who disagree with your arguments before.

It's a cowards way out, and you're very good at trying to use it, but you fall on your duff every time and never seem to wake up to this fact.

I'll admit (I've never denied it) there are Indians I dislike, Chinese, Russians, Australians and no doubt people of a dozen other races and nationalities,... but that does not make me a racist, as these persons are by far and away only a tiny minority of those whom I have had contact with. Most are at least average some are far better than that. Until I have dealings with them, the remainder are as yet unjudged. No DB,... you racist argument fails yet again. (as usual).

Like I said, "Welcome to the dark ages", or at least the ideas and mentality of those times. I wonder what the reaction would have been, had it have been said by a Muslim cleric?
 
Even though condoms are available free of charge in South Africa (in police stations of all places), HIV/AIDS has reached pandemic proportions, simply because many/most South African blacks refuse to use them. The ANC distributed millions of them in various townships in Cape Town, only problems was, they (the ANC workers) stapled the instructions to use them, through the condom.

AIDS related deaths are at a all time high in places like KwaZulu Natal, funeral directors simply cannot keep up, two or more bodies are being buried together in the same grave as land for burials is running out rapidly.

Whole villages in rural communities are being wiped out.
 
"Some people panic about militant Islam in their country, which is no where near as deadly as this, but then again, HIV/Aids is really only killing "primitive Blacks" in some far away country, so I guess that makes it OK."

So you deny that this was a low accusation of racism directed at me? LOL.

I can tell you that my family have a charity in Tanzania, based upon building schools and education.

I don't think that you would know Racism if it bit you on the butt. I never said a thing about "race", is this another of your diversions? We've been through the old Racist/Homophobe/Antisemite or whatever label you care to hang on those who disagree with your arguments before.

Another lying rant.

I have called me a racist in the past and then failed to respond when challenged.

So - you have accused me of racism in fact.

I have never referred to you as a racist.

I have never accused you or anyone else of Homophobia.

Anti-semitism? I have made no secret of my opinion of you on this score, and why. The fact is that you do not realise it.

Your accusations of cowardice should be referred to you mirror. Bear in mind that being an empty vessel making the most noise does not amount to bravery.

It is you who use the racist card by inference et al when it suits you.

I cannot recall ever 'falling on my duff':rolleyes:, thank you. What dimension are you living in?



It cannot prove or disprove anything that only lives in the minds of men. Did you ever even stop to think how it is impossible to prove or disprove something that is no more than an idea in the minds of some persons?

Yes and you should take that on board.


Yes I do. Because, to use your usual circular argument, you can't prove that it's not, can you?

It does't fall to me to so, as you made the wild accusation of religion being 'medieval clap-trap', your usual offensive uninformed bellow, flying in the facel the held wisdom of great minds, even tho' I fully understand that those minds are nothing like as great as yours. Many of the greatest Darwinist are committed Christians; many committed Christian scholars are confirmed Darwinists.
Just try to understand this. Darwinism does not represent Atheism; Atheism does not represent Darwinism. Darwin did not consider religion to be 'medieval clap-trap'. The conflict between religion and evolution the brought about by the clash of the Ultra-Darwinists and the Creationists, and the arguments of both were flawed. Darwin would have been distraught at this turn of events. Evolution is the How, Religion is the Why.
-- No DB,... you racist argument fails yet again. (as usual).


Once again you hurl accusations of racism which you cannot justify, but I expect no more of you.
 
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And exactly which post were you reading where I said anything about abortion? The debate revolves around the use of condoms,... isn't that just a bit of a clue as to what I might have been talking about?
The means of prevention doesn't change the question... How does preventing the birth of a child save it's life?
 
The means of prevention doesn't change the question... How does preventing the birth of a child save it's life?

Umm I think the problem is with your reference to "abortion", if the child is never conceived then it cant be aborted. Conversely if the child never existed it cant be killed.
 
Yes, but it cannot be saved either.


My only argument is that we say it for what it is... This is not the saving of a non-existent child's life... It is simply taking away the opportunity for conception... It is in no way saving a life.
 
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