The Dambusters

Can we completely understand the Second World War without being a part of it? We can probably understand the strategical/political decisions during the war, but can we understand how it was in London during the Blitz or standing in a Higgins boat approaching Normandy?

I believe there's wisdom I this! I mean the thing was colossal.​
 
Last edited:
Can we completely understand the Second World War without being a part of it? We can probably understand the strategical/political decisions during the war, but can we understand how it was in London during the Blitz or standing in a Higgins boat approaching Normandy?

I think we can understand WW2 in fact more so now than ever before because we can study the war without the emotion an bias of having experienced it.

We can separate the propaganda that both sides propagated and look at the bare facts.

Can we understand the emotion and feeling of being there, no we cant but these days we dont need to because it is over and often leads to bias views anyway an example of this is the Italian campaign, my father and two uncles fought there and as a kid I listened intently to their stories.

Then a few years ago I discovered my wife's maternal grandfather also fought there with the US army and oddly enough her paternal grandfather served in the German army in Italy as well.

So for 70+ years there were five different views of the Italian campaign by five different veterans of the campaign and all of them were different, it took 70 years for those views to be collated into one view and what I learned was that all of them were accurate but they were only small snapshots of events as they happened, 5 pieces of a 1,000,000 piece puzzle.

These days we have access to hundreds of thousands of bits of the puzzle from all sides that we can analyse dispassionately and honestly and we should do it however I feel that many of us analyse data and then try to make it fit the propaganda we have had drummed into us since WW2.
 
I think we can understand WW2 in fact more so now than ever before because we can study the war without the emotion an bias of having experienced it.

We can separate the propaganda that both sides propagated and look at the bare facts.

Can we understand the emotion and feeling of being there, no we cant but these days we dont need to because it is over and often leads to bias views anyway an example of this is the Italian campaign, my father and two uncles fought there and as a kid I listened intently to their stories.

Then a few years ago I discovered my wife's maternal grandfather also fought there with the US army and oddly enough her paternal grandfather served in the German army in Italy as well.

So for 70+ years there were five different views of the Italian campaign by five different veterans of the campaign and all of them were different, it took 70 years for those views to be collated into one view and what I learned was that all of them were accurate but they were only small snapshots of events as they happened, 5 pieces of a 1,000,000 piece puzzle.

These days we have access to hundreds of thousands of bits of the puzzle from all sides that we can analyse dispassionately and honestly and we should do it however I feel that many of us analyse data and then try to make it fit the propaganda we have had drummed into us since WW2.

Just some questions; what analytic tool do you use when you are analyzing the war? What kind of sources are you using? Many people can write about the war without having the credentials of doing so
 
Just some questions; what analytic tool do you use when you are analyzing the war? What kind of sources are you using? Many people can write about the war without having the credentials of doing so

I agree that there are many opinions out there and they are only opinions (as is mine) however you can look at the methodology used to compile data and you can use common sense.

My method for forming my opinions are to look at as much data as I can find, discard the ones that are obviously wrong (German Antarctic bases and UFO's for example) and then determine what you believe to be the most likely case.

Now people will then draw the conclusion that my opinions are as inaccurate as everyone elses which is true as they are only as good as the data I used to form them but I think they are in many ways more accurate than the views of an individual that was there as my views are formed with information from both sides.

Take for example BritnAfrica's story of the German aircraft shooting up his Granddads pub on the way down, I personally find that one hard to believe as everything I have read about US/Luftwaffe/RAF crews says they were more interested in getting out of aircraft in the process of crashing than shooting up bars, I would be more inclined to believe that any bullet holes in local establishments were from night-fighters finishing off an aircraft or returning debris from antiaircraft fire.

It isn't hard to see how a story like that would get around during the blitz and how a kid would form an opinion and perpetuate the story afterwards but logic would tell me that it probably isn't the case.

Of course I could be wrong (it has happened before) but it would take actual evidence for that to happen which none of us have.
 
As a kid my school was shot up, my aunt lost three sons and a grandson during the war. My father was called up in 1938 and in bomber command and I did not see him till 1947. Later on in the war I met German POWs and became quite friendly with them and found that they were nice young men. 75.000 German POWs requested to stay on in Britain after the war rather than go home and lived here quite happily. Do I hate the Germans no did not ever hate the Germans, well I did go off them for while after a number of my friends were killed when the school was bombed and strafed. As one German POW said to me that you must remember the RAF is bombing in Germany and these German pilots could have lost their family in one of those raids and just want to get there own back, now that I could understand, still this is just the ramblings of a person who was child and opinions warped by some one else according to some people here, but at least I was there and saw things first hand. I can remember the mood of the people and what they went through, and I was also in London on VE day and was in the crowds out side the Palace.
It comes down to who might have a better idea of what went on around that time, some one who was there or some one who has read a few books by some one else who also was not there.
 
Last edited:
So why did the Germans shoot up your school, what were their orders etc. surely you would have identified the squadron and the aircraft from its markings and then read its mission reports?

Oh wait you couldn't because they were not available until after the war and are only available in written form although some are online now.

So the reality is you saw an event (and I am not doubting it happened) and you knew how you and those around you felt at the time not really a complete story though is it.

The funny thing is that you can fill in those missing details though by doing research and reading the books of those who probably were not there at the time but did take the time to find and complete the details you don't have.
 
Take for example BritnAfrica's story of the German aircraft shooting up his Granddads pub on the way down, I personally find that one hard to believe as everything I have read about US/Luftwaffe/RAF crews says they were more interested in getting out of aircraft in the process of crashing than shooting up bars, I would be more inclined to believe that any bullet holes in local establishments were from night-fighters finishing off an aircraft or returning debris from antiaircraft fire.

I don't care if you believe or not, I got that story from my grandfather who was actually there and was involved. My grandfather was not in the habit of lying or tall tales, he had more then enough stories from WW1 then to make up something like that.
 
I don't care if you believe or not, I got that story from my grandfather who was actually there and was involved. My grandfather was not in the habit of lying or tall tales, he had more then enough stories from WW1 then to make up something like that.

Don't get me wrong I think it is a good story and I fully believe that your grandfather believed it (I don't believe he was lying) as well but I just don't think it is likely to have happened in the manner he thought it did.

It is not an attempt to degenerate the man the world is full of these anecdotes but the fact that he thought that is how it happened does not make it true.
 
After the school was shot up every Squadron available was airborne three of the German planes were shot down and the fourth was seen streaming smoke over Southend with a long way to go to get home and with the amount of smoke coming from his aircraft it was thought unlikely that he got there and no pilots survived from this attack on the school.
As I said earlier that the German POW that spoke to put down as a revenge attack, and if read my earlier post you might have seen it.

Also in much earlier post on here I did mention the school by name but then again you only pick out bits of the post that suits you or you feel that you can twist to get over your point view. Also if it happened to do you think you just might remember it happening regardless of the passing years.
 
Don't get me wrong I think it is a good story and I fully believe that your grandfather believed it (I don't believe he was lying) as well but I just don't think it is likely to have happened in the manner he thought it did.

It is not an attempt to degenerate the man the world is full of these anecdotes but the fact that he thought that is how it happened does not make it true.

The aircraft concerned crashed taking out a row of houses not far from the pub. As he was actually there when it happened, covered in glass as the windows were blown in, I wouldnt think he imagined it.
 
Germans shooting up Schools , pubs and maybe 'loos makes one wonder as the average 109 had about 20 min of air time over England due to fuel consumption it would seem the 109 would seek a more worthy target .
 
The BF 109 had 30 minutes of fuel over London before they were forced to turn back. A fighter can do a lot of damage in 30 minutes. However, the aircraft concerned here was a bomber heading for Enfield Lock small arms factory.
 
The aircraft concerned crashed taking out a row of houses not far from the pub. As he was actually there when it happened, covered in glass as the windows were blown in, I wouldnt think he imagined it.

I am struggling to imagine a German bomber or any bomber for that matter spend the last few seconds it had before it crashed shooting up a town.

After all this is an aircraft that would be normally flying at 28,000 feet over London and my understanding is that once it becomes obvious that the aircraft is going to crash the crew tend to be more concerned with getting out of the aircraft rather than carrying out some death dive into the corner pub.

I certainly have no trouble believing a bomber crashed into a row of houses after being shot down I just suspect the crew were long gone or dead well before it got to the state where its 7.62mm guns could effectively be used on a building.

As I said I do not believe the man was lying or making it up as he had no reason to but I think there has to be a different reason for what happened.
 
Last edited:
I am struggling to imagine a German bomber or any bomber for that matter spend the last few seconds it had before it crashed shooting up a town.

After all this is an aircraft that would be normally flying at 28,000 feet over London and my understanding is that once it becomes obvious that the aircraft is going to crash the crew tend to be more concerned with getting out of the aircraft rather than carrying out some death dive into the corner pub.

I certainly have no trouble believing a bomber crashed into a row of houses after being shot down I just suspect the crew were long gone or dead well before it got to the state where its 7.62mm guns could effectively be used on a building.

As I said I do not believe the man was lying or making it up as he had no reason to but I think there has to be a different reason for what happened.

I would assume LeEnfield would have more knowledge regarding the height the Luftwaffe bombed at as he was there and witnessed it. As a WW1 vet on the Somme and Hill 60 when it blew up, my grandfather would know when he was being shot at for whatever reason
 
I am not sure I agree, I would have a lot more faith in Luftwaffe flight records than anyone's eyeballs.

Obviously aircraft operated at much lower levels for different reasons but bomber operations generally took place between 18,000 and 28,000 feet this was extended to 30,000 later on.
 
I am not sure I agree, I would have a lot more faith in Luftwaffe flight records than anyone's eyeballs.

Obviously aircraft operated at much lower levels for different reasons but bomber operations generally took place between 18,000 and 28,000 feet this was extended to 30,000 later on.

I'm sure Luftwaffe records would not record every aircraft that was shot down or where they crashed.

A crashed German Bomber with human remains on board was found in Epping Forest many years after the war. No one knew it was there until it was stumbled upon by accident.

RAF fighter aircraft were still being found many years after the war ended.

After 71 years, a British historian has located the final resting place for a heroic young Royal Air Force pilot who was listed as missing in action and presumed dead in May 1940 during World War II.

22-year-old Flying Officer Derek Allen when a German gunner shot his plane down over farmland in northern France. When Allen’s parents were first told their son was missing in action, it was hoped that he might have been captured by the Germans and still be alive. Much later in the war, a RAF adjutant visited to tell them his plane had crashed and he was presumed dead. When the war ended in 1945, Derek Allen was one of 40,000 missing British airmen.

I would suggest that records were not complete, either RAF or Luftwaffe.
 
When the school was attacked the aircraft were about 100 feet of the ground and we could see the pilots so I think they must have been below 28.000. Like many British planes they came in low to get under the radar and many of the German bombers did the same thing. When they came in low gunner on the German bombers would often let off a few rounds in your direction. As children we soon learnt to pick out the aircraft by their engine noise as helped keep you alive. Living in what was called bomb alley we were often treated to this and of course every German Gunner in the aircraft is going to put this on their flight reports. As the war progressed we felt that the Germans came over and picked out targets of opportunity. I currently live on the south coast of England were we have remembered a large number of Canadians who were killed when the Germans bombed the town at random, now there is no way that the Germans knew just who living were and many of these men had been billet with local families so when they killed the soldiers along with the civilians it was for them a lucky hit.
 
Back
Top