The Dambusters

LeEnfield said:
tevet

You say that many Americans were appalled at the destruction at Dresden, Yet when America fire bombed the cities in Japan it made Dresden look like a sunday school picnic.
The Japanese cities were bombed with napalm and around 100.000 died in Tokyo, more people died in this attack than died in Hiroshima and Nagasaki put together. Yet they will happily have a go at the RAF for carrying out the raid on Dresden.
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Curtis Lemay was just as bad or worse than Bomber Harris. Regardless of who killed more by bombing civilian population centers and they both approved operations that took many 100.000's of thousands of lives. They both had a complete lack of respect for civilian casualties. Oh BTW didn't the Americans participate in the bombing of Dresden as well. I thought after the British hit the city a wave of American bombers came in afterword's?
 
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JOC said:
Curtis Lemay was just as bad or worse than Bomber Harris. Regardless of who killed more by bombing civilian population centers and they both approved operations that took many 100.000's of thousands of lives. They both had a complete lack of respect for civilian casualties. Oh BTW didn't the Americans participate in the bombing of Dresden as well. I thought after the British hit the city a wave of American bombers came in afterword's?
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The allied bombed the city for four days and if the Brits were doing it at night and the Americans by day. If we try to implement today's morals to what occurred during the Second World War, we are making a historical error when we are actually taking the decision making of the war out of its context.
 
I3BrigPvSk said:
The allied bombed the city for four days and if the Brits were doing it at night and the Americans by day. If we try to implement today's morals to what occurred during the Second World War, we are making a historical error when we are actually taking the decision making of the war out of its context.
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The Americans absolutely didn't let civilian causalities get in the way of winning the war with Germany. If a building was a German stronghold or contained snipers it was shelled regardless if civilians were in it or not. One big difference between the allies and Germany was we didn't target civilians for murder and I won't go on and on about that. However we were the good guys and welcomed with open arms in most of France, Italy, Belgium and even parts of war weary Germany. If the American army today fought the way they did in WW2 we'd create an international uproar.
 
JOC said:
The Americans absolutely didn't let civilian causalities get in the way of winning the war with Germany. If a building was a German stronghold or contained snipers it was shelled regardless if civilians were in it or not. One big difference between the allies and Germany was we didn't target civilians for murder and I won't go on and on about that. However we were the good guys and welcomed with open arms in most of France, Italy, Belgium and even parts of war weary Germany. If the American army today fought the way they did in WW2 we'd create an international uproar.
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I begin to think about the Second World War as something abnormal. The logistical part of it is still used as a reference. The war was so immense so we cannot really grasp the magnitude of it. I hope we will never see something like this again, when all involved countries resources went into the war effort. So if the Second World War has a legacy, we cannot allow this to happen again, we will not survive it as a humanity. The allied destroyed the German cities and during the blitz the Germans did more or less the same. Dresden was destroyed because of the war effort, was it right or was it wrong? Who cares now.
 
There is all this talk what we did to the enemy yet no one mentions the German bombing of Stalingrad where they killed over 50.000 people in one raid and created a firestorm. When the Germans first tried to fire bomb London the raid was carried on a date of a very low tide and at a time of that low tide and if it had not been for the organisation of the fire brigade and their bravery then London could well have suffered the same fate as Dresden. Fire engines and crews as far north as Birmingham were in London fighting the fires and these attacks went on for over two months non stop. If you had lived in Britain at this time you would have found little pity when the RAF paid the Germans back for what they had been going through. During WW 2 there were very few innocent people for all those that were not fighting were making munitions for the forces, the only innocents were the children.
 
LeEnfield said:
There is all this talk what we did to the enemy yet no one mentions the German bombing of Stalingrad where they killed over 50.000 people in one raid and created a firestorm. When the Germans first tried to fire bomb London the raid was carried on a date of a very low tide and at a time of that low tide and if it had not been for the organisation of the fire brigade and their bravery then London could well have suffered the same fate as Dresden. Fire engines and crews as far north as Birmingham were in London fighting the fires and these attacks went on for over two months non stop. If you had lived in Britain at this time you would have found little pity when the RAF paid the Germans back for what they had been going through. During WW 2 there were very few innocent people for all those that were not fighting were making munitions for the forces, the only innocents were the children.
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My great grandfather was killed by a V2 in London. Though not during the BoB, these V weapons also took a toll.
 
LeEnfield said:
There is all this talk what we did to the enemy yet no one mentions the German bombing of Stalingrad where they killed over 50.000 people in one raid and created a firestorm. When the Germans first tried to fire bomb London the raid was carried on a date of a very low tide and at a time of that low tide and if it had not been for the organisation of the fire brigade and their bravery then London could well have suffered the same fate as Dresden. Fire engines and crews as far north as Birmingham were in London fighting the fires and these attacks went on for over two months non stop. If you had lived in Britain at this time you would have found little pity when the RAF paid the Germans back for what they had been going through. During WW 2 there were very few innocent people for all those that were not fighting were making munitions for the forces, the only innocents were the children.
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That is a classic "whataboutery" response the argument that because someone else did it is not a justification for doing the same thing yourself especially if you are busily claiming that you are fighting to stop others from doing those things.
 
Monty.....You are at war and if your opponent attacks you in certain way are you saying that you should just take it regardless of the cost of life to your people or do you use the same tactics against him. The only thing that stopped the Germans using chemical warfare in WW 2 was that they knew if they used it then it would be used against them. During the cold war the only thing that stopped it getting hot was every knew that if war broke out it would go nuclear and every one would lose. The Germans in 1939 /40 were so strong military they could not see how they could lose and attacked with a no holds attitude in order to crush all those that stood in their way. Also I grew up during this time just south of London and witnessed the carnage first hand.
 
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LeEnfield said:
Monty.....You are at war and if your opponent attacks you in certain way are you saying that you should just take it regardless of the cost of life to your people or do you use the same tactics against him. The only thing that stopped the Germans using chemical warfare in WW 2 was that they knew if they used it then it would be used against them. During the cold war the only thing that stopped it getting hot was every knew that if war broke out it would go nuclear and every one would lose. The Germans in 1939 /40 were so strong military they could not see how they could lose and attacked with a no holds attitude in order to crush all those that stood in their way. Also I grew up during this time just south of London and witnessed the carnage first hand.
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So you are suggesting the ends justify the means?

You contention is that by emulating Hitler and his homicidal lunatic mates we are the more deserving to win or our cause is some how more justified?

If you are then good for you but wouldn't you consider it hypocritical when it is all over to pretend you did it because you are the more humane and compassionate bunch that the new world should want to be like.

I am certainly not arguing that the allies should not have fought the war nor am I saying that Germany did not need to be defeated and that in defeating them there was not going to be some damned ugly moments what I am saying is that we should stop trying to perpetuate the myth that the allies were choir boys fighting the devil because in the end there wasn't much to tell us apart.
 
I have never said I am humane when it comes to fighting a war, during WW 2 the people had one thing in common and that was to defeat Hitler. The German people voted Hitler into power and supported him him while he was there. Okay I will agree that quite a few of them did not know just what he did in their name, but the only way to break Hitler was to defeat Germany and the people that supported this war. Germany was still feeding people into the death camps until they were over run and any thing the Allies did to bring this war to close even a day earlier saved lives. Still sitting in a comfortable environment many years after and having no personal knowledge of WW 2 of it I can see how you can take morale high ground and look down on those who made it possible for you do so.
 
That is a pretty poor shot given that I strongly doubt you were being picked off the beaches at Dunkirk or wading ashore at Normandy either.

Lets face it a childs view of an event like that is generally tainted and easily molded.
 
MontyB said:
So you are suggesting the ends justify the means?

You contention is that by emulating Hitler and his homicidal lunatic mates we are the more deserving to win or our cause is some how more justified?

If you are then good for you but wouldn't you consider it hypocritical when it is all over to pretend you did it because you are the more humane and compassionate bunch that the new world should want to be like.

I am certainly not arguing that the allies should not have fought the war nor am I saying that Germany did not need to be defeated and that in defeating them there was not going to be some damned ugly moments what I am saying is that we should stop trying to perpetuate the myth that the allies were choir boys fighting the devil because in the end there wasn't much to tell us apart.
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Once the killing starts were all the same, it's what you do afterwards that decides who or what you become. Most soldiers and airmen are put in a position that requires them to kill or be killed, unfortunately in some cases they don't find out until after the event that isn't always the case.
 
MontyB said:
I am certainly not arguing that the allies should not have fought the war nor am I saying that Germany did not need to be defeated and that in defeating them there was not going to be some damned ugly moments what I am saying is that we should stop trying to perpetuate the myth that the allies were choir boys fighting the devil because in the end there wasn't much to tell us apart.
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One big difference is during combat even though the allies accepted collateral damages that included civilian deaths. As mentioned if a building was a German stronghold or held German snipers they would shell it despite containing civilians. Doing whatever it took to defeat the Germans in the field.
The Germans were issued and obeyed criminal orders. When they invaded the USSR. They were ordered to kill any civilian at will, without any accountability. If a German was killed by partisan forces anywhere from (100 to 10) innocent were generally executed as out of hand. They executed countless Soviet POW's in the field (which later lead to poor treatment of German POW's at the hands of the Soviets). They even killed a fair sprinkling of allied POW's. Many assisted in the genocidal polices of Jews and Slavs that took place in Poland and the USSR as well. Although it is true that some frontline combat unit were insulated from these activities to a degree, they were so massive in scale on the eastern front it's hard to believe that they weren't at least aware of them. No allied units took part in activities such as these.
 
You have also fallen into the same counter intuitive argument resulting in "whataboutery".

"We" the allies fought the Germans primarily because we believed that what they were doing was wrong yet we used the same tactics and justify it on the grounds that "they did it first".

Sure we didn't build the concentration camps (although Japanese Americans may not agree and to be fair the Germans did not invent them either) but we slaughtered enemy civilians by the bucket load both German and especially Japanese and towards the end of the war when it really was just a matter of time before it was all over we carried out our biggest raids targeting primarily civilians, Dresden, Tokyo, Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Had these cities been bombed in 1943-1944 I doubt anyone would blink an eye but we didn't we waited until the result was guaranteed and then did them and that is what made our leaders no better than those they rallied against.

I do not blame any of the servicemen involved they carried out their orders just as the luftwaffe carried out theirs but the likes of Harris, LeMay and Goering were all equally as bad as each other and should have met the same fate.
 
MontyB said:
You have also fallen into the same counter intuitive argument resulting in "whataboutery".

"We" the allies fought the Germans primarily because we believed that what they were doing was wrong yet we used the same tactics and justify it on the grounds that "they did it first".

Sure we didn't build the concentration camps (although Japanese Americans may not agree and to be fair the Germans did not invent them either) but we slaughtered enemy civilians by the bucket load both German and especially Japanese and towards the end of the war when it really was just a matter of time before it was all over we carried out our biggest raids targeting primarily civilians, Dresden, Tokyo, Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Had these cities been bombed in 1943-1944 I doubt anyone would blink an eye but we didn't we waited until the result was guaranteed and then did them and that is what made our leaders no better than those they rallied against.

I do not blame any of the servicemen involved they carried out their orders just as the luftwaffe carried out theirs but the likes of Harris, LeMay and Goering were all equally as bad as each other and should have met the same fate.
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I disagree the German army carried out large scale criminal orders against civilians and POW's. I am not taking out the SS who ran the concentration camps, my statements have nothing to do with the concentration camps. Nor am I referring to the bombing campaigns of any of the participating countries. I am talking about specific criminal orders given by Hitler to the Germans in the Eastern Campaign to murder civilians at will without any fear of prosecution. In this way the Wehrmacht was a party to the murder of million upon millions of civilians in Poland and USSR. They were considered sub-humans and fit only for death or slavery. The Wehrmacht assisted in these criminal policies in the name of "just following orders, the same excuse that was given at Nuremburg". Again the allies never participated in such criminal orders as the whole scale destruction of thousands of villages and towns including the killing of nearly all their inhabitants. The killings of countless POW's. Manstein was quoted as follows: Any native that can't contribute to the greater good of the Reich should consider himself lucky to be alive.
 
Monty ........Yes I have childs view of the war and yes I was not on the beaches being shot at. Now living in south London we were bombed and shot at and many of my friends were killed at Sandhurst School which was just out side Bromley in Kent. I saw the effects of bombing and watched the BoB take place over my head. We had to cope with butterfly bombs when we went out to play which were scattered all over the place. When you went to school and you saw a friend with a glum looking face you avoided asking them what was wrong as you would know the answer before being told that another person in their family had been killed. As civilians living in the south of England we were as much in front line as many of the soldiers, so think before making a quip like a childs view of things.
 
JOC said:
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I disagree the German army carried out large scale criminal orders against civilians and POW's. I am not taking out the SS who ran the concentration camps, my statements have nothing to do with the concentration camps. Nor am I referring to the bombing campaigns of any of the participating countries. I am talking about specific criminal orders given by Hitler to the Germans in the Eastern Campaign to murder civilians at will without any fear of prosecution. In this way the Wehrmacht was a party to the murder of million upon millions of civilians in Poland and USSR. They were considered sub-humans and fit only for death or slavery. The Wehrmacht assisted in these criminal policies in the name of "just following orders, the same excuse that was given at Nuremburg". Again the allies never participated in such criminal orders as the whole scale destruction of thousands of villages and towns including the killing of nearly all their inhabitants. The killings of countless POW's. Manstein was quoted as follows: Any native that can't contribute to the greater good of the Reich should consider himself lucky to be alive.
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We can dance around this issue for days on end and waste countless megabytes of data before we realise that neither of us are going to agree on this issue, I personally think you are avoiding problem by trying to extrapolate the outcome backwards, your assumption seems to be that because Germans did these things they must have had orders from the very top to do them.

I am arguing that all army's did these things and have done since time began and that they did not necessarily have specific orders to do them therefore if the German high command must carry responsibility for these actions then allied high command must also.

Unlike yourself I am not fixated on numbers or dates because a criminal act is a criminal act no matter when it happened or how many were involved, you are a thief whether you steal 1 apple or 1000.
 
Monty........ Millions of Russians POWs were killed are allowed to die of starvation, can you tell me when the Allied Armies did this also. Okay before you get back on your soap box I will agree that the Russians managed to get rid of a lot of German POW, there again the German invasion of Russia killed some 20 million Russians.

If one follows your argument then if one Army has big gun that kills more people than the ones you have then it would be wrong for you to build a bigger gun that would counteract his big gun. I suppose you will argue that the V 1 and V 2 were okay as they did kill as many people as area bombing.


Any war is a criminal act of some one trying impose there ideals on to you and if you disagree then you will be wiped out, now if it is wrong then to fight against things then we are all guilty and having myself taken up arms for my country then I am also guilty. Now I can't help wondering if you have ever served in the military and have smelled gunpowder at close range.
 
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