A cult of death?

[Insight]

The primary purpose of any military service is to employ violence to compell action, even if that means taking of human life.

Despite our ability to wrap these actions in the cloak of patriotism, service, and honor, doesn't it merely cover up what is in essence a cult of death?

We celebrate our ability to kill and destroy. We make heros out of those who kill better and braver than the rest. Can society truley be enlightened as long as we continue to celebrate the destruction of human life and human endevour? How do we rise above it?

 

[Whispering Death]

First question: Yes
Second question: No. Well, if there was one opressive Nazi-style world government, then there would be no war.

 

[Missileer]

The primary purpose of any military service is to employ violence to compell action, even if that means taking of human life.

What about defending one's nation, way of life, or property from those who would destroy it?

Despite our ability to wrap these actions in the cloak of patriotism, service, and honor, doesn't it merely cover up what is in essence a cult of death?

I don't buy the statement that we choose to claim patriosm or honor for a reason to go to war. I still believe it is a reaction to imminent danger. People choose to join cults. The inherent fight or flight in the face of danger triggers self preservation mode.

We celebrate our ability to kill and destroy. We make heros out of those who kill better and braver than the rest. Can society truley be enlightened as long as we continue to celebrate the destruction of
human life and human endevour? How do we rise above it?

I don't believe we, or anyone for that matter, celebrate killing and destroying. On the contrary, we celebrate the fact that a conflict ends and the killing stops. We celebrate the fact that our kids come home safe and that they chose to go in harm's way to defend their loved ones.

How do you know human kind can ever rise to a higher plane where there is no malice toward no one? Maybe that enlightenment doesn't exist and never will. If eternal peace on earth was a plan by a higher power or just human evolution, there would never be a Cain and Able impulse in us.

 

[Insight]

I don't believe we, or anyone for that matter, celebrate killing and destroying.

Yet we do not reject it outright either. As I said, we accept it and lionize those who do it better than others.

I'm not disparaging the sacrifice, but I wonder if an organization can truly promote virtue if it is imbued with violence, destruction, and death. Are we not naturally repelled by such things as human beings? How is it that we come to accept it as necessary?

 

[Missileer]

I don't think, IMHO, "reject" is valid when one is backed against a wall and it's the only option left. I guess you could describe the thrill of victory as "lionizing" but it beats the agony of defeat any day.

Sure, you can promote virtue in a culture, it just won't be in every country in the world. One man's virtue is another's idea of weakness.

No, there's not natural human repulsion of death because we look at it as inevitable and even necessary from the dawn of time. We killed to eat and fought and killed to protect ourselves knowing that it could end in death for us or a foe.

 

[Whispering Death]

I don't believe we, or anyone for that matter, celebrate killing and destroying.

I do every single time a top al-quaeda is sent to his rightfull hell.

If we where to find Osama's corpse I'd be in the bar celebrating with all my friends that night.

War and killing is not fun nor is it pleasurable. However, we are not gods, we are humans. And history has shown again and again that those who try to live like high-minded gods have more often than not been the corpses that murderous barbarians are celebrating the death of.

 

[Italian Guy]

I do every single time a top al-quaeda is sent to his rightfull hell.

If we where to find Osama's corpse I'd be in the bar celebrating with all my friends that night.

War and killing is not fun nor is it pleasurable. However, we are not gods, we are humans. And history has shown again and again that those who try to live like high-minded gods have more often than not been the corpses that murderous barbarians are celebrating the death of.

Looks like I wrote this myself.

 

[Nachos]

I do every single time a top al-quaeda is sent to his rightfull hell.

If we where to find Osama's corpse I'd be in the bar celebrating with all my friends that night.

War and killing is not fun nor is it pleasurable. However, we are not gods, we are humans. And history has shown again and again that those who try to live like high-minded gods have more often than not been the corpses that murderous barbarians are celebrating the death of.

Let us know the location.. I'll join in the celebration.

 

[System Bolaget]

War is a necessary evil that your kind must perpetrate upon itself for a while longer. In time, your people will as a whole become enlightened in a new and yet unknown way and you will no longer need to wage war with one another. But until all of your kind can reach that level of development, you will continue to settle scored in fields of battle. The desicive time, depending on the nature of this timeline could manifest itself in a number of ways. In any case, however, it is doubtful that anyone reading this at the time of its creation will be present to that event. Your people are still in the phase where the price is paid to justify the ends. your suffering is paving the way for the coming of this distant new time.

 

[Marinerhodes]

War is a necessary evil that your kind must perpetrate upon itself for a while longer. In time, your people will as a whole become enlightened in a new and yet unknown way and you will no longer need to wage war with one another. But until all of your kind can reach that level of development, you will continue to settle scored in fields of battle. The desicive time, depending on the nature of this timeline could manifest itself in a number of ways. In any case, however, it is doubtful that anyone reading this at the time of its creation will be present to that event. Your people are still in the phase where the price is paid to justify the ends. your suffering is paving the way for the coming of this distant new time.

Uhhh...ok.

War and killing is not fun nor is it pleasurable. However, we are not gods, we are humans. And history has shown again and again that those who try to live like high-minded gods have more often than not been the corpses that murderous barbarians are celebrating the death of.

I agree. Become a non warlike culture and a warlike culture will inevitably see you as prey. However, being a warlike culture will leave you open to attacks from others that are in fear of you. On the other side of the cube, if you demonstrate the willingness to defend yourself and your culture and the ability to do so yet take no action upon others, there is a very good chance you will be left alone.

Like it has been said, Cain and Abel, Fight or Flight instinct, whatever is bred in us by god or mother nature or whatever else one may believe in, the fact remains the same:

The strong may survive, but the strongest will endure.

 

[gladius]

The premise of this thread is based on total naive thinking, that is totaly one sided way of thinking, showing no insight, without any balance.

If we as a society were so abhorent to kill and destroy when need be, then Hitler would have ended up rulling the world because we refused to fight. Then the true cult of death would have won.

This thinking that our military is a cult of death lacks balance. Everything needs balance. You see this in nature, in the properties of chemistry, when this balance is upset then eco system gets destroy, or the chemical componds loose it beneficial properties, this goes for human society as well. Our ability to wrap the military and its actions in service, self-sacrifice, and patriotism is a natural extension of order and balance in our society, and is therefore the way it should be.

 

[LeEnfield]

Bravery and killing are too different things, I think you would be better of asking the directors of some of Hollywood's war films these questions as this is were most of your information appears to have been gleaned.

 

[major liability]

I think that the desire to kill is not necessarily part of human nature, simply a byproduct of greed. Caveman A wants something Caveman B has. Instead of buying it, Caveman A beats B to death with a club and takes his shiny object.

Edit: No, we have no evolved since then.

 

[System Bolaget]

War is a byproduct of agreement in conversation. It begins when something is believed in. That which is then agreed upon. Eventually that belief must be defended and sometimes this escalates to the level of a war. As I explained earlier, your people shall transcend that at some point in time but until then it will be necessary to have more wars defending the things that you believe in. Each war creates a massive breakdown which gives way for an even larger breakthrough. At some point in the future, your true nature will be revealed to you in such a breakthrough on a massive scale and the arts of warfare will be no longer necessary. This revelation is still several generations away, though, in this timeline.

 

[Insight]

System. I'm not sure I agree with you there. Ponder this for a minute.
As much as I enjoy writing letter after letter about the military cult of death, the fact remains that if a modern Dante were to update the Divine Comedy, he would have to create a special circle in Hell for stingy numskulls who shackle us with the chains of solecism. I guess I should start by saying that the military cult of death is an opportunistic framework of analysis. That is, it is an ideological chameleon, without any real morality, without a soul. The practical struggle which now begins, sketched in broad outlines, takes the following course: The military cult of death likes to surround itself with concepts about how the members of its army of morbid, unsophisticated marauders are ideologically diverse. Perhaps that means that some of them prefer Stalin over Hitler. In any case, the military cult of death does not mean that the kids on the playground are happy to surrender to the school bully. Do you think that that's merely sloppy reporting? I don't. I think that it's a deliberate attempt to topple society. In such a brief post as this, I certainly cannot refute all the vituperations of the worst types of meddlesome pests I've ever seen, but perhaps I can brush away some of their most deliberate and flagrant credos. Any rational argument must acknowledge this. The military cult of death's mingy, sullen paroxysms, naturally, do not.
The hysteria and witch-hunts fueled by the military cult of death's sentiments will hurt people's feelings as soon as our backs are turned. That concept can be extended, mutatis mutandis, to the way that it is out to understate the negative impact of sensationalism. And when we play its game, we become accomplices. The military cult of death's concepts occasionally differ in terms of how apolaustic can they are, but generally share one fundamental tendency: They wipe out delicate ecosystems. Looking at it on the bright side, the military cult of death's "I'm right and you're wrong" attitude is lawless, because it leaves no room for compromise.
Not surprisingly, one thing that the military cult of death does well is leave us in the lurch. Whatever weight we accord to that fact, we may be confident that it believes that it is the ultimate authority on what's right and what's wrong. Sorry, but I have to call foul on that one. If, today, the urge of the military cult of death's war-soul can prompt it to encourage people to leave their spouses, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism, and become detestable televangelists, then imagine, if you can, how that same soul will express itself through the thousandfold-more-prurient the military cult of death of tomorrow. I don't mean to scare you, but those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it. Of course, if the military cult of death had learned anything from history, it'd know that I myself wonder what would happen if it really did perpetuate what we all know is a corrupt system. There's a spooky thought. The military cult of death's sycophants are quick to point out that because the military cult of death is hated, persecuted, and repeatedly laughed at, it is the real victim here. The truth is that, if anything, the military cult of death is a victim of its own success -- a success that enables the military cult of death to distract people from serious analysis of the situation. The moral of the story: By following the military cult of death's suggestions, we have become such poor caretakers of the tree of liberty that it has wilted and is sagging dangerously close to the ground.
Now maybe some of this is a bit exaggerated, but I think it's important to point out the extreme position in order to demonstrate that moderation is not really the most "moral" approach.
Thanks for the frank discussion, however.

 

[Marinerhodes]

I am glad I am in the U.S. Marines and not some generic "military cult of death".

Would you mind clarifying what or who you mean with that tag? It seems to me you are either speaking in generalities or speaking of a specific cult type of organization.

If speaking in generalities then I would have to agree with gladius in that the thinking is totally naive in it's conception.

If speaking in specifics please state what organization(s) you are referring to.

 

[Insight]

I am speaking in broad generalities. I'm trying to promote a discussion about the role of the military in a moralistic society. I'm trying to focus on the dissonence between a society that values human life in its own right yet celebrates organizations that are dedicated to taking it. I"m not pointing toward any one organization since all militaries are trained to destroy human life to achieve objectives.

I'm sorry if you can't understand what I'm getting at. It's all there in the original post. Perhaps you'd be more comfortable in the "what's the strongest gun" thread, or something.

 

[Maytime]

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."George Orwell, (attributed)
English essayist, novelist, & satirist (1903 - 1950)

Insight, we bring death to our enemy so that they do not bring death upon you. Your ecclectic vocabulary cannot hide the blatant slap in the face to all members of any nation's armed forces, in such comments like, "morbid, unsophisticated marauders." How can you possibly think ALL of us are like that? And what is your basis for all of your allegations? I see no citations, no quotes, nothing to corroborate your convoluted mockery of an intelligent editorial. I respect your 1st amendment rights, but slander is a sign of a closed mind. You are confusing "cult" with brotherhood, and I would say a "brotherhood of death" is a good thing when it means death to our enemies (those who wish to do harm to the innocent of ANY nation), but it sounds like you attribute us to murderers and vandals. If I'm getting any of this wrong please do chime in, I encourage you to question the "rough men" who are "ready to do violence" on your behalf.

edit: insight, your last comment to marinerhodes was uncalled for. It shows you're an elitist who feels superior to those with less education than you.
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[Insight]

Insight, we bring death to our enemy so that they do not bring death upon you. Your ecclectic vocabulary cannot hide the blatant slap in the face to all members of any nation's armed forces, in such comments like, "morbid, unsophisticated marauders."
​

Before you lose yourself to your self righteous indignation, perhaps you should check my profile. I was doing this business before you were wearing pants.

You obviously miss the point of the post. That distresses me greatly as you appear to be (at least part of the time) a uniformed service member. What I'm asking this fine group of professionals to do is to examine the organzation that they are in and grasp the fundamental nature of what we do.

You have parroted back the standard text given to any military recruit. I'm not saying it's false. I'm asking you to examine it from a new angle. I'm attempting to prompt a discussion that forces us all to weigh the different values that drive us to do what we do. If that's too difficult, then please do not attack me. There are plenty of other threads on this board that do not require you to confront your basic values or engage in some degree of introspection. The "best tank" threads seem quite popular and do not require much intellectual effort. Perhaps those may be more to your taste.

Perhaps you are spending too much time complimenting yourself on being a "rough man" and not enough examining what it means in a society that values human life. Do you not grasp the inherent contradiction? To ignore it is to do a disservice to the society you claim to serve.

 

[Maytime]

You're right on different things, I apologize if I attacked you, I obviously missed your point and intentions. Some of the verbage struck me as confusing and a bit misleading, but now I see what you were trying to say.

To jump in on your discussion, I think that, in general we value human life, but dehumanize the ones we aim to destroy (i.e. al qaeda). Perhaps that softens the reality that they are people, albeit evil, but at the very least human.