Could Germany have defeated Russia?

MontyB

All-Blacks Supporter
I doubt anyone out there would argue that in 1941 the German military was not the best in the field but did it have what it took to defeat Russia or was it just too big to be beaten.

There are cases to be made about poor decisions, racial ideologies that drove huge numbers into partisan activities and general incompetence within the German infrastructure that were exposed by a protracted war.

But perhaps the Soviet Union was just too much for them.
 
Don't think so. About as much of a chance as Japan would have had invading the USA. Russia was too big and they had too many soldiers. Germany was ill equipped to fight in the Russian winter and perhaps Germany's weakest link was Adolph Hitler. Of course Uncle Joe probably killed more Russians than the Germans. 4 countries not to invade IMHO #1 Russia , #2 USA #3 Switzerland and #4 China, though the Japanese did a fair job trying.
 
Hutchie;705420Germany was ill equipped to fight in the Russian winter and perhaps Germany's weakest link was Adolph Hitler. Of course Uncle Joe probably killed more Russians than the Germans. [/QUOTE said:
1) NO

2 ) NO

3 ) Irrelevant and wrong
 
Germany was ill equipped to fight in the Russian winter and perhaps Germany's weakest link was Adolph Hitler.

The funny thing is that I keep reading German reports that they were equipped to fight in the Russian winter what they weren't prepared for was the difficulty in shifting material to the front.

For example the Winter of 1941 German logistics had plenty of winter equipment but the amount they could ship east was so limited they had to decide whether to send winter equipment, supplies and munitions or reinforcements they didnt have the transport capacity to move all three at once consequently warehouses remained full of winter uniforms while troops at the front froze.
 
The funny thing is that I keep reading German reports that they were equipped to fight in the Russian winter what they weren't prepared for was the difficulty in shifting material to the front.

For example the Winter of 1941 German logistics had plenty of winter equipment but the amount they could ship east was so limited they had to decide whether to send winter equipment, supplies and munitions or reinforcements they didnt have the transport capacity to move all three at once consequently warehouses remained full of winter uniforms while troops at the front froze.

I have read similar things and that is an evidence of not being prepared for what the winter does to humans. It is tough to be out and about in the winter without winter clothes. The Germans also had problems with lubricants for their weapons and other equipment.
 
I spent some time on the Korean DMZ in the early 1970's. I can tell you the US. Army didn't do a great job equipping me for winter. I never got any winter issue, nearly froze my butt off. Surely wouldn't have wanted to have been there during the war! Can only imagine, being in either the Russian or German Armies in the middle of a Russian winter.
 
I spent some time on the Korean DMZ in the early 1970's. I can tell you the US. Army didn't do a great job equipping me for winter. I never got any winter issue, nearly froze my butt off. Surely wouldn't have wanted to have been there during the war! Can only imagine, being in either the Russian or German Armies in the middle of a Russian winter.

I served in the end of the 1980s and we were issued winter clothes. We had probably not survived without any winter clothes. I can also imagine how it had been during the war without any clothes suited for the cold temps.
 
I have read similar things and that is an evidence of not being prepared for what the winter does to humans. It is tough to be out and about in the winter without winter clothes. The Germans also had problems with lubricants for their weapons and other equipment.

I think people over rate the effect of the Russian winter, it is not like Germany in winter is a tropical paradise, Germans are well used to and equipped for cold weather.

Where the war in Russia fell over in my opinion is logistics but it was not a failing of German logistics units as their ability late in the war to ship units around to plug gaps proves their ability but rather a failure of German command to understand just how backward the transport infrastructure in Russia was at the time.
 
I think people over rate the effect of the Russian winter, it is not like Germany in winter is a tropical paradise, Germans are well used to and equipped for cold weather.

Where the war in Russia fell over in my opinion is logistics but it was not a failing of German logistics units as their ability late in the war to ship units around to plug gaps proves their ability but rather a failure of German command to understand just how backward the transport infrastructure in Russia was at the time.

When the roads turn into what resemble a mud pit instead of a road had an impact on the logistics. The railroad was different too, even if the Russians destroyed most of it while retreating. The distances also drained the troops and the logistics too

The winter has a huge effect on those not dressed to resist the cold. Without proper boots and gloves, hands and feet will feel the full impact of the cold. Not having a proper winter head wear will cause a huge release of the body heat. It doesn't matter how used you are to the winter if you don't have the clothes for it.
 
I'm quite impressed by how the Russians were able to relocate their industries to the Urals. To get them up and running and building up the logistics from them.

I also think it is difficult to pin point one significant factor as the most decisive factor that caused the German defeat. There are several factors leading to the final conclusion. There is a causal effect of events that caused the defeat.

The Germans underestimated the distances, the poor infrastructure, the winter, etc etc. I also think they underestimated how the Russians reacted to the invasion. Most other countries might have surrendered after the initial blows. Another factor that might influenced the Russian reaction is how the Germans were treated them.
 
It was cold for the Soviets also.

Exactly, it wasn't just cold on the German side of the lines, roads and rail links on the Russian side were just as bad.

I'm quite impressed by how the Russians were able to relocate their industries to the Urals. To get them up and running and building up the logistics from them.

I also think it is difficult to pin point one significant factor as the most decisive factor that caused the German defeat. There are several factors leading to the final conclusion. There is a causal effect of events that caused the defeat.

The Germans underestimated the distances, the poor infrastructure, the winter, etc etc. I also think they underestimated how the Russians reacted to the invasion. Most other countries might have surrendered after the initial blows. Another factor that might influenced the Russian reaction is how the Germans were treated them.

One other aspect of the German defeat that seems to be continually over looked (maybe for good reason) is the Balkans campaign and having to bail the Italians out in Greece.
The material losses both combat and garrison duty, as well as the 8-10 week delay in being able to initiate Barbarossa, could have been crucial.
 
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Exactly, it wasn't just cold on the German side of the lines, roads and rail links on the Russian side were just as bad.



One other aspect of the German defeat that seems to be continually over looked (maybe for good reason) is the Balkans campaign and having to bail the Italians out in Greece.
The material losses both combat and garrison duty, as well as the 8-10 week delay in being able to initiate Barbarossa, could have been crucial.

Indeed, even the German decision to intervene in Africa forced them to divert resources which can have been useful elsewhere.
 
North Africa was a bit of a side show though, it was a campaign that never had to be fought had the Italians been smart enough to do nothing.

The logistic requirements of the African campaign were worse than that of the Russian one.
 
North Africa was a bit of a side show though, it was a campaign that never had to be fought had the Italians been smart enough to do nothing.

The logistic requirements of the African campaign were worse than that of the Russian one.
Because Italy didn't immediately take Malta.....and yes, they should have done a Franco.
 
Because Italy didn't immediately take Malta.....and yes, they should have done a Franco.

I really do think that would have been the best thing Italy could have done for itself and the Axis.
It would have made the invasion of Southern France almost impossible and forced any landings on the Mediterranean coast of Europe to have been in the area of Greece.
 
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