Could anyone help me identify this?

Dillon

New Member
I am more of a world war 2 buff, but when I came across this deal I couldn't decline it! I just bought a world war 1 helmet (M1917) for $60, and the previous owner believed it was American. It has the liner inside and still intact, and still has the chin strap. The paint or logo mark which I believe was on the front of the helmet is not there but there is a mark where it was. I included pictures for anyone to help me find information about this!

I checked under the liner, for any markings of a company, but didnt find anything, but it is stamped with a code under the back of the helmet labeled "YJ145"

Questions:

  • Allies or British?
  • Around what year (early world war 1, late world war 1?
  • Could you identify the logo, or what the picture is on the front of the helmet?
  • What would the value be?
I apologize for the HUGE pictures, I tried resizing them, and it didn't work... :confused:

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4.jpg


Thanks alot for any help! I greatly appreciate it!

-Dillon
 
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Looks definitely British to me. Isn't there some way those helmets were marked to know which production line they were from? One could always find out how old the material is... but there you'll need experts and a lab ^^
 
Well I am going to take a stab in the dark here and say:

Definately Allied and I am leaning toward it being an M1917, I am reasonably certain that it isn't British if your YJ145 marking is correct as that isn't a known British manufacturing code.
 
What is the imprint on the front of the helmet - it looks like an eagle, but could easily but lettering.
 
It looks kinda like lettering, "ROS", or "RNG" maby? It is hard to tell, because it is so worn down... I tried searching for world war 1 american regiment logos on google but 'find anything...

-Dillon
 
Here are the makers marks for British helmet manufacturers...
"D" [James Dixon & Sons (Sheffield)]
"H" [W. Hutton & Sons (Sheffield)]
"HH" [Harrison Bros. & Howson Ltd. (Sheffield)]
"R" [John Round & Sons (Sheffield)]
"V" [W & E Viener (Sheffield)]

Steel Suppliers:
"FS" [Thomas Firth & Sons Ltd. (Sheffield)]
"F"
"FKS"
"HS" [Hadfields Ltd. (Sheffield)]
"BS" [W. Beardmore & Co. Ltd. (Glasgow)]
"MS" [Miris Steel Co. (London)]
"A" [Edgar Allen & Co. (Sheffield)]
"O" [Samuel Osborn & Co. Ltd. (Sheffield)]
"V" [Vickers Ltd. (Sheffield)]
"B" [Burys & Co. (Sheffield)]
"M&S" [Maxfield & Sons (Sheffield)]
"MLS"
 
That sort of helmet was produced during WW1 & 2 and was worn by all British & Commonwealth troops in both wars. If i remember rightly it was also used by the Americans in WW1 as when they got to France they did not have any helmets.
 
I did a search and found the following.

The War Office Invention Department was asked to evaluate the French design but they decided that it was not strong enough and was too complex to be swiftly manufactured - the British industry was not geared up to an all-out effort of war production in the initial stages of World War I, which also led to the shell shortage of 1915.

A design patented in 1915 by John L. Brodie of London offered advantages over the French design as it was constructed from a single piece that could be pressed from a single thick sheet of steel, giving it added strength.

Brodie's design resembled the medieval infantry kettle hat or chapel-de-fer, unlike the German Stahlhelm, which resembled the medieval sallet. It had a shallow circular crown with a wide brim around the edge, a leather liner, and a leather chinstrap. The helmet's "soup bowl" shape was originally designed to protect the wearer's head and shoulders from fragmentation falling from above. The shallow bowl design allowed the use of relatively thick steel that could be formed in a single pressing while maintaining the helmet's thickness. Although this made it more resistant to projectiles, the design offered less protection to the lower part of the head and neck than other designs.

The original design (Type A) was made of mild steel with a brim 1.5–2 inches wide. The Type A was in production for just a few weeks before the specification was changed and the Type B was introduced in October 1915. The specification was altered at the suggestion of Sir Robert Hadfield to a harder steel with 12% manganese content which became known as "Hadfield's steel", which was virtually impervious to shrapnel balls provided they impacted from above. It also had a narrower brim and a more domed crown.

The original paint scheme, suggested by Brodie, was a mottled light green, blue, and orange camouflage, but they were also painted in green or blue-grey.

That same month the first delivery of the helmets was made to British Army troops. Initially there were far from enough helmets to equip every man, so they were designated as "trench stores", to be kept in the front line and used by each unit that occupied the sector. It was not until the summer of 1916, when the first 1 million helmets had been produced, that they could be generally issued.

The Brodie helmet reduced casualties but was criticized by General Herbert Plumer on the grounds that it was too shallow, too reflective, its rim was too sharp, and its lining was too slippery. These criticisms were addressed in the Mark I model helmet of 1916 which had a separate folded rim, a two-part liner, and matte khaki paint finished with sand, sawdust, or crushed cork to give a dull, non-reflective appearance.In 1917 the liner was modified to include a rubber cushion to make it more comfortable (this was not adopted for the M1917). Helmets were often painted with unit insignia towards the end of the war, and are often called "parade helmets" by collectors.

The weight of a Mark I helmet was approximately 1.2 pounds (0.54 kg).

It was first used in battle in April 1916 at the Battle of St Eloi. Troops from other countries in the British Empire also used the Brodie helmet as did the United States Armed Forces when they entered the war in 1917. The United States Government initially purchased some 400,000 helmets from Britain. From January 1918 the US Army began to use helmets manufactured in the US and these helmets were designated M1917. The steel helmet was known to the troops as a "tin hat" or for the officers a "battle bowler" (from Bowler hat).

By the end of the war some 7.5 million Brodie helmets had been produced, including 1.5 million M1917 helmets for use by US forces.

None of the steel helmets introduced during the World War I era were intended to protect against bullets, but were primarily aimed at reducing head-wounds from shrapnel.

From 1936 the Mark I Brodie helmet was fitted with an improved liner and an elasticated webbing chin strap. This final variant served until late 1940 when it was superseded by the slightly modified Mark II which served the British and Commonwealth forces throughout World War II. During this period, the helmet was also used by the police, the fire brigade and ARP wardens in Britain. There was also a "civil" pattern available which was a little deeper but made from ordinary mild steel, which was available for private purchase.

In 1944, the British replaced it with a significantly modified design known as the Mk III Turtle helmet, which served until the late 1980s when the British Army replaced steel helmets with kevlar helmets.

The US Army used the basic Brodie-patterned M1917 helmet until 1942 with some modifications, which included a totally new liner and canvas chin strap. It was finally superseded by the M1 Helmet in 1942.
 
Hi, I was reading on a site that under the leather lining in the helmet, there were traces of asbostos inside those helmets. Does anyone know if thats true? Because when I was looking for any company or maker stamps between the leather liner, I hope I wasent exposed to asbostos :shock:

Thanks for any info

-Dillon
 
Hi, I was reading on a site that under the leather lining in the helmet, there were traces of asbostos inside those helmets. Does anyone know if thats true? Because when I was looking for any company or maker stamps between the leather liner, I hope I wasent exposed to asbostos :shock:

Thanks for any info

-Dillon

While it is probably accurate as asbestos was used in a lot of things for a long time the amount of asbestos you were exposed to was almost negligible, you have to remember people wore these helmets in far more challenging situations than you ever will and I doubt if any of them had any helmet lining asbestos related issues.

People may be exposed to asbestos in their workplace, their communities, or their homes. If products containing asbestos are disturbed, tiny asbestos fibers are released into the air. When asbestos fibers are breathed in, they may get trapped in the lungs and remain there for a long time. Over time, these fibers can accumulate and cause scarring and inflammation, which can affect breathing and lead to serious health problems.

Moral of the story is don't suck your helmet liner continuously for the next 20 years and you will be fine.
:)
 
Ok, thanks for replying! I just wasent sure about it, because I was folding up the liner to see if there were any maker marks in the inside...

And thanks BritianAfrica for the really detailed post about the helmets!

-Dillon
 
Ok, thanks for replying! I just wasent sure about it, because I was folding up the liner to see if there were any maker marks in the inside...

-Dillon

I can understand that and you don't want to take it lightly but the exposure risk in my opinion is probably below the background level of asbestos exposure:

Asbestos is everywhere in the air, soil, and water. Since asbestos exposures can result in cancer, scientists say that there is no known safe level for exposure. But we know that everyone is exposed during his life to some asbestos: it may be in the drinking water and it is in the air at very low levels. HOWEVER, the asbestos-related diseases usually occur in people who have worked with fairly high levels of asbestos for a long time and who were not protected from breathing in the fibers.

http://www.mde.state.md.us/Programs/AirPrograms/Asbestos/about_asbestos/index.asp
 
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