Originally Posted by I3BrigPvSk

All of them at the same time? Does the historian provide with which of them or are you guessing?

Not all at the same time,but there were years where a late frost was succeeded first by heavy rains and than by drought .

The paper of Mark Tauger is available on the web under the title I have given .

Originally Posted by lljadw

Not all at the same time,but there were years where a late frost was succeeded first by heavy rains and than by drought .

The paper of Mark Tauger is available on the web under the title I have given .

There is a problem here, if Ukraine had years of bad harvests, why did they not have famines earlier?

When a natural event occur, such as a shift of the precipitation patterns and induces a bad harvest, a drought, or even a flood. It is up to us to act on it to mitigate the result. To be late in the response or doing too little is also an action, in cases of responding to natural disasters, to not act is also an action.

Originally Posted by lljadw

Your sources are using Conquest who is totally discredited and sources from Ukrainian emigrants which also are debunked .One should not use as source Ukrainian emigrants in Canada,neither Irish emigrants in the USA.

Besides,10 million victims in the Ukraine is impossible:in 1932,the population of the Ukraine was less than 30 million:if 10 million had died during the famine,the Ukrainians would have been extinct : no country can afford a loss of a third of its population .The Ukrainians did not extinct : 50 years late,they were 50 million .

The 3 links I supplied were 3 quick ref. I came up with. I'm not going to make a research project out of this. The Ukrainian Genocide by Stalin is a well known historical fact.
In fact my former boss came from the Ukraine, his brother was the voice of radio free Ukraine and he said the things the Soviets did was horrible later to be followed by the Nazi's who were just as bad or worse. They managed to escape after WW2. The population of the Ukaine ws decimated 2ce in > 15 years time. It's a miracle that anybody survived in that blood soaked land.

Originally Posted by I3BrigPvSk

There is a problem here, if Ukraine had years of bad harvests, why did they not have famines earlier?

When a natural event occur, such as a shift of the precipitation patterns and induces a bad harvest, a drought, or even a flood. It is up to us to act on it to mitigate the result. To be late in the response or doing too little is also an action, in cases of responding to natural disasters, to not act is also an action.

There were famines earlier in Russia/the Soviet Union which also affected the Ukraine.

1891/1892 :375000/500000 deaths

1921/1923:between 1 million and 10 million

1932/34:

1946/48:between 1/1.5 million of whom 350000 in the Ukraine

Michael Ellman in "Stalin and the Soviet famine of 32/33 revisited"

P 677: "If in 31 and 32 there had been two good harvests,there would not have been a famine ."

On the first question : did the Soviet regime intentionally create the famine of 32/33: the answer is :NO :the famine was caused by bad harvests.

On second question : was the Soviet regime (co) responsible for the big number of casualties by the collectivisation : the answer is : YES .


But,one should not mix both questions .

Bad harvests,resulting inthe risk (small/big) famines were/are chronic in the SU/Russia : in southern Russia/SU : 1901,1906,1921,1932,1939,1948,1951,1957,1975,1995.

Originally Posted by lljadw

There were famines earlier in Russia/the Soviet Union which also affected the Ukraine.

1891/1892 :375000/500000 deaths

1921/1923:between 1 million and 10 million

1932/34:

1946/48:between 1/1.5 million of whom 350000 in the Ukraine

Michael Ellman in "Stalin and the Soviet famine of 32/33 revisited"

P 677: "If in 31 and 32 there had been two good harvests,there would not have been a famine ."

On the first question : did the Soviet regime intentionally create the famine of 32/33: the answer is :NO :the famine was caused by bad harvests.

On second question : was the Soviet regime (co) responsible for the big number of casualties by the collectivisation : the answer is : YES .


But,one should not mix both questions .

Bad harvests,resulting inthe risk (small/big) famines were/are chronic in the SU/Russia : in southern Russia/SU : 1901,1906,1921,1932,1939,1948,1951,1957,1975,1995.

You can mix the two questions. Stalin took the opportunity to punish the Ukrainians during the famine. Soviet Union exported grains at the same time, but did nothing to help the Ukrainians.

Originally Posted by I3BrigPvSk

You can mix the two questions. Stalin took the opportunity to punish the Ukrainians during the famine. Soviet Union exported grains at the same time, but did nothing to help the Ukrainians.

Actually the famine was created by Stalin due to forced collectivization. Which took the productive Ukraine the bread basket of Europe and made it in large part non productive. This resulted in the staving to death of millions. It was the greatest man made agricultural disaster to have ever occurred and wasn't natural in the making. In addition Stalin's NKVD murdered and deporting of millions of Ukrainians during this time.

Originally Posted by JOC

Actually the famine was created by Stalin due to forced collectivization. Which took the productive Ukraine the bread basket of Europe and made it in large part non productive. This resulted in the staving to death of millions. It was the greatest man made agricultural disaster to have ever occurred and wasn't natural in the making. In addition Stalin's NKVD murdered and deporting of millions of Ukrainians during this time.

I have been going through the data about the famine in Ukraine and see if the famine was caused by natural events, such as droughts, a change in the precipitation patterns, frost, and heat waves. I agree with you, JOC. There is no evidence of a natural caused famine in the data. The sources in the field of climatology do not support any famine in Ukraine in the famine between 1932-1933. There was a drought in Ukraine and in the Volga region between 1921-1922, which caused a famine.

1)In 1930/1931 there was a big drought in the US which affected 23 states (the Southern Drought)

2)The 1932 famine was not limited to the Ukraine :Kazachstan was hit,there was famine in Orel,Smolensk,Wetern Siberia:this debunks the claim from the Ukrainian Diaspora that it all was about Ukraine

3)There was drought in 1931 and heavy rain in 1932,this created plant diseases and weeds


4)The Ukraine never was the grain basket of Europe:this is a wrong romanticed version.And it never will be .

Soviet grain harvests in millions of tons)

1930:77/83.5

1931:69.5

1932: 55.7/62.1

1933:68.5

1934 : 67.5

For the Ukraine (same years)

22.7
18.3
14.6
16.9
10.2

For the independent Ukraine (which is bigger than the Soviet Ukraine)

1997:37

2001:39.7

2002:36.7

2003 :20

2004 : 34.8

2005: 28.7

Even in the independent Ukraine there are big fluctuations,thus why could there no big fluctuations in the Soviet period ?

In 2003,the harvest was lower than in 1930 (73 years before) ;this proves that there is no such thing as an Ukrainian grain basket .

About the victims : not all of them died of hunger :a lot of them died from typhus and malaria .

There were several reasons for the partial collectivisation of the Soviet agriculture,one of them was that the Soviet regime was convinced that only a fusion of the countless small farms could increase the production of agriculture products,which the regime needed for export aims .The result was a failure ,which could be have foreseen (but the Soviet bureaucrats were townsmen with a lack of knowledge of the country) : the climate in the SU/Russia/the Ukraine is the big spoilsport which blocks the attempts to increase the production to a Western level .

Some 50 years ago Nikita K.had the "splendid" idea to start big agricultural productions in Kazachstan,the result was a disaster and one of the reasons for his dismissal .

Originally Posted by lljadw

1)In 1930/1931 there was a big drought in the US which affected 23 states (the Southern Drought)

2)The 1932 famine was not limited to the Ukraine :Kazachstan was hit,there was famine in Orel,Smolensk,Wetern Siberia:this debunks the claim from the Ukrainian Diaspora that it all was about Ukraine

3)There was drought in 1931 and heavy rain in 1932,this created plant diseases and weeds


4)The Ukraine never was the grain basket of Europe:this is a wrong romanticed version.And it never will be .

Soviet grain harvests in millions of tons)

1930:77/83.5

1931:69.5

1932: 55.7/62.1

1933:68.5

1934 : 67.5

For the Ukraine (same years)

22.7
18.3
14.6
16.9
10.2

For the independent Ukraine (which is bigger than the Soviet Ukraine)

1997:37

2001:39.7

2002:36.7

2003 :20

2004 : 34.8

2005: 28.7

Even in the independent Ukraine there are big fluctuations,thus why could there no big fluctuations in the Soviet period ?

In 2003,the harvest was lower than in 1930 (73 years before) ;this proves that there is no such thing as an Ukrainian grain basket .

About the victims : not all of them died of hunger :a lot of them died from typhus and malaria .

There were several reasons for the partial collectivisation of the Soviet agriculture,one of them was that the Soviet regime was convinced that only a fusion of the countless small farms could increase the production of agriculture products,which the regime needed for export aims .The result was a failure ,which could be have foreseen (but the Soviet bureaucrats were townsmen with a lack of knowledge of the country) : the climate in the SU/Russia/the Ukraine is the big spoilsport which blocks the attempts to increase the production to a Western level .

Some 50 years ago Nikita K.had the "splendid" idea to start big agricultural productions in Kazachstan,the result was a disaster and one of the reasons for his dismissal .

There is no evidence of the droughts you are referring to in the data of climatology. There is data about a drought in Ukraine and southern parts of Russia earlier, but there was no bad harvest during the famine in Ukraine
The Dust Bowl drought in the Midwest has nothing to do with Ukraine, even if the weather patterns influence each other.

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http://thediplomat.com/2015/04/how-s...a-won-the-war/

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