I'm trying Micha... I'm really trying.

"Mais c'est difficile, je ne peux voir tes yeux d'ici ma douce."
But I will keep searching for light.

That's some nice French there, by the way. Sweet...

Sorry guys, didnt mean to bust your balls or anything... Just trying to have a friendly conversation, forgive the civy I am if I said something distasteful... Just trying to understand.

I have absolutely no problem with you trying to understand. I'm very happy when one is legitimately curious about the endeavors of those that are in the military. I really try to tell it the way I see it from my education and from my experience. Understand though, that sometimes some of these issues are quite hot button issues for some of us because they are VERY personal.

I apologize if I have come as abrasive to you, I can see that you are genuinely curious. You must understand that in the military there is kind of an unwritten rule that when it comes to combat....actual combat vets experience trumps anything a book or outside experience says. For a frontline soldier, combat is probably the most significant, personal, and emotional experience that they have ever endured. It is simply beyond comprehension for those that have not experienced it. Therefore it is expremely hard to explain and extremely hard to relate to unless you have been through it.

I can talk to my buddies that I served with in combat about things that I can't even talk to my wife about....she just wouldn't understand...and trust me, she HAS REALLY tried to. I can't explain it. Can anyone else here vocalize this better than me please?

No doubt I’m going to piss off LeMask, but I suspect he is trying too hard to convince us and he feels guilty about not serving (or maybe he tried and couldn’t get in). I’m a Army vet of 25 years, including Viet Nam. I came from a upper middle class family with practically no history of military service, I went to college (in S. Calif) from High School and was disillusioned and bored, especially by the anti war, anti military and anti US rhetoric which somehow came into every class.
After I went on active duty I went back to school and I agree that experience reflects on the higher education process, it is great to call out those far left Professors and the students who follow them like lemmings.
I also spent several years as a bartender and bouncer in Texas Nightclubs, anybody who readily admits to being “a normal civilian” who has “kicked ass in several bar fights” and being “wounded several times” has problems beyond what we are addressing, even if he were a Cop. I think maybe he has seen too many movies.
As to equating education to intelligence - makes me wonder how there could have been smart people before there were schools? How did those dumb, uneducated hillbillies and rednecks win so many wars? I read history and I know that few of their leaders went to Ivy League Universities.
Even now neither of our Presidents colleges allow ROTC on campus.

“Human beings didn’t evolve brains in order to lie around...killings the first thing we learned. And a good thing we did, or we’d be dead, and the tigers would own the earth. “ Orson Scott Card, ENDERS GAME

Combat Vets if they want to speak of their trials at all don't want to discuss it with non combat vets. and they can tell almost immediately who is faking. There are a lot of fakers out there going all the way back to WWI.
The thousands of men and women did jobs, which may have been done in a "combat Zone" but were not "combat". A mess attendant, while performing a vital task, is not a combat soldier merely because he does he job in a Combat Zone.
Finance and Administrative soldiers are absolutely vital for many reasons and they function in a combat zone, but they are not combat soldiers, we must have
Truck drivers but unless they come under fire, dismount and engage a enemy they are not combat soldiers.
Of course these line are sometimes crossed and a cook, or a clerk or truck diver becomes a combat soldier, but this is the exception not the rule.
Go into most any VFW and count the Viet Nam Vets, ask them how many of them were in combat and match that to the total. Keep in mind that for every combat soldier in Viet Nam at least 10 were behind him for support.
This also applies to the Air Force and Navy in Viet Nam. If the Air Force guy was enlisted it’s likely he'll claim to be an Air Commando. Navy Em were all in the "boats" on the waterways - not on one of the scores of ship offshore in relative safety
Read history, and beware of “war storied” most of them are not true. More than half of guys who claim to have been in Viet Nam are lying. Yet many time the purveyors of the tales have told them for so long and so many times that they, themselves, believe the stories.

"In the final choice a soldier’s pack is not so heavy a burden as a prisoner’s chains." D.D. Eisenhower

Again, we are talking about so many things... Easy to get mixed up.

muscogeemike, I dont know... Honestly, If I feel guilty for not serving? I dont think so. Serving who? Joining what army?

I dont believe in nations and governments. So joining a government and taking an oath to protect a nation or following a government's orders isnt an option for me. It's true, I would be court martialed in my first week.

I think that you got me wrong here. But what you said next proves that you were on target at some point.
I went to college and learned about other cultures, about history... And this anti-US rhetoric works on me... In fact, I'm not anti US. I'm Pro-US. I'm as pro-US as they come. But I'm anti-Western Imperialism. I'm anti-colonization. I'm for true democracy. I'm for true politics. I'm for cultural diversity. And I'm an extremist when it comes to protect the poor classes from the upper classes and their capitalist BS ideal...

But most of you guys are anti-Us without even knowing... There is the historic USA, the USA of the constitution... And the US lying in bed with Saudis to get some oil...

There is the hard working America... And then there is financial America, making money out of nothing...

If you dont see the difference between these twos... Then you are a poor American. Even a Taliban could make a better American in these conditions.

This is it, there is honest people and there is SOBs... And I could have joined if I found a Honest people army fighting SOBs... Damn man, I would be the eager type who gets shot in the first seconds... The advantage is that you wouldnt have to listen to me speaking about justice... As you would think that it's annoying and naive... But hell, good for you if you find some peace.

And about the bar fights... That was the point. I never claimed that... I just said that I didnt have to prove myself to join a discussion... Some disagree...
Do I need a violence résumé to be accepted? I dont have enough experience? I have to join a battle to speak up? The little experience I had with violence isnt enough?

For me it's ridiculous... Maybe that I dont have the experience to understand what they meant... Maybe... But I still think it's too bizarre for my little mind. And if it's me being naive... Show some tolerance. Do you get angry when you see a naive kid?

I have no problem with you opinions, but when it comes to the attitude... I just cant handle that...

muscogeemike, if you care about history sir. Know that it was proven that semi-civilized people are the best when it comes to wage warfare and win a battle.
There is many interesting scientific papers on that.
From the Arab/Muslim invasions to your hill-billies...

But I really want to know how these hillbillies could win a battle in the information Era we are in. How to use a satellite link when you cant read? I really want to know if this historic rule still applies.

And I dont want a society of cowards... I want a society with faith in the fight agaisnt crime and corruption. For me, mankind will never achieve this everlasting peace, or this global order... It will never happen, violence is part of us. Some people will fail in respecting the law, and we will have to stop them. But in these days, we installed the corrupt people at the top, and they send honest people at the bottom to fight each others...

And I'm aware about lies... But I respect the liars who do that to get some attention from a lady...
I think it's part of the game ^^

Originally Posted by LeMask

But I really want to know how these hillbillies could win a battle in the information Era we are in. How to use a satellite link when you cant read? I really want to know if this historic rule still applies.

You should read up on the Millennium Challenge and what happened there, it's fairly interesting.

Originally Posted by LeMask

Again, we are talking about so many things... Easy to get mixed up.

muscogeemike, I dont know... Honestly, If I feel guilty for not serving? I dont think so. Serving who? Joining what army?

I dont believe in nations and governments. So joining a government and taking an oath to protect a nation or following a government's orders isnt an option for me. It's true, I would be court martialed in my first week.

I think that you got me wrong here. But what you said next proves that you were on target at some point.
I went to college and learned about other cultures, about history... And this anti-US rhetoric works on me... In fact, I'm not anti US. I'm Pro-US. I'm as pro-US as they come. But I'm anti-Western Imperialism. I'm anti-colonization. I'm for true democracy. I'm for true politics. I'm for cultural diversity. And I'm an extremist when it comes to protect the poor classes from the upper classes and their capitalist BS ideal...

But most of you guys are anti-Us without even knowing... There is the historic USA, the USA of the constitution... And the US lying in bed with Saudis to get some oil...

There is the hard working America... And then there is financial America, making money out of nothing...

If you dont see the difference between these twos... Then you are a poor American. Even a Taliban could make a better American in these conditions.

This is it, there is honest people and there is SOBs... And I could have joined if I found a Honest people army fighting SOBs... Damn man, I would be the eager type who gets shot in the first seconds... The advantage is that you wouldnt have to listen to me speaking about justice... As you would think that it's annoying and naive... But hell, good for you if you find some peace.

And about the bar fights... That was the point. I never claimed that... I just said that I didnt have to prove myself to join a discussion... Some disagree...
Do I need a violence résumé to be accepted? I dont have enough experience? I have to join a battle to speak up? The little experience I had with violence isnt enough?

For me it's ridiculous... Maybe that I dont have the experience to understand what they meant... Maybe... But I still think it's too bizarre for my little mind. And if it's me being naive... Show some tolerance. Do you get angry when you see a naive kid?

I have no problem with you opinions, but when it comes to the attitude... I just cant handle that...

muscogeemike, if you care about history sir. Know that it was proven that semi-civilized people are the best when it comes to wage warfare and win a battle.
There is many interesting scientific papers on that.
From the Arab/Muslim invasions to your hill-billies...

But I really want to know how these hillbillies could win a battle in the information Era we are in. How to use a satellite link when you cant read? I really want to know if this historic rule still applies.

And I dont want a society of cowards... I want a society with faith in the fight agaisnt crime and corruption. For me, mankind will never achieve this everlasting peace, or this global order... It will never happen, violence is part of us. Some people will fail in respecting the law, and we will have to stop them. But in these days, we installed the corrupt people at the top, and they send honest people at the bottom to fight each others...

And I'm aware about lies... But I respect the liars who do that to get some attention from a lady...
I think it's part of the game ^^

Because speed bump. It takes a man with a rifle to hold freakin ground and close with and destroy the enemy tech missed.

I believe that every nation/human group have a number of men capable of being good soldiers.

The big difference is often the technique used and technology available.

It takes men to hold the ground, it's true. But even the infantry can enjoy the technology. From thermal vision and all the high tech sensors to CAS that give them the ability to ask for the gods of death to land on their enemies...

There was a documentary speaking about how an Iraqi unit tried to use the cover of a sandstorm to engage US troops in the beginning of the war.
Took some serious balls and brains to use the sandstorm as cover to engage the enemy...

But the US troops asked for air support and the Air Force dropped some smart bomb capable of finding its target in a sand storm... A single drop neutralized the whole attacking Iraqi unit.

You can have all the balls and brains you want... When it's impossible...

And soon, there will be tools to hold the ground without putting boots in harm's way.
Intelligent mines with sensors, unmanned combat vehicles, unmanned turrets etc...

You want the benefits of a society, but none if the personal responsibilities.
Weare born with a sort of social contract.
You make too much out of separating roles-society is a cooperative effort.
Those who choose to take without giving anything back are generally known as freeloaders and not highly regarded.
There is no existing perfect society, most of us just do as best we can to help maintain it.

I think you are starved for attention and strive for the beatings you get here with the unrealistic premises you post.
Feeding trolls.

Yeah, but if I put a gun on your head and force you to sign a contract, this contract have no value.

Same for the social contract. If I have no other choice but to accept it. Then I refuse it as a principle.

Give me a viable alternative, and I will accept it. And yes mate, I rather live in the Far West than in such a world.
And of course I will use the system I live under actually. Damn right I will take the benefits, it would be stupid to do otherwhise.

And welcome mate in a democratic world, it's a world of conflicts and opinions.

And many things can seem ridiculous. They thought that Columbus was a fool. That he was going to fall from the planet...

The Spanish wasted millions of people in South America thinking they are soulless apes we could kill without punishment.

A lot of **** happens because some people dont see how wrong it is... Slavery, genocide etc etc...

And I add national borders and nations to the list. And many other things... They call me an anarchist, but I dont think I am.

Call me crazy, freeloaders, or whatever you want... Even attention *****. In fact, I like this one. It's funny to call people that in a forum.

Yeah, go to a forum, and call everybody a troll and an attention *****. Everybody would shut up, to not get any attention. And let people agree with each others, to not be called trolls.

Wow, you are genius. Please, do that in a parliament. If someone says "may I speak" Call him an attention junky... And if someone speaks about a sensitive topic, call him a troll...

It would be hilarious. And then call me a disturbed person. I beg you to do that.