The CIA abroad.




 
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Boots
 
July 14th, 2005  
Italian Guy
 
 

Topic: The CIA abroad.


There's a lot of rumor going on in Italy these days about this:
http://www.serendipity.li/cia/cia_milan_kidnap.htm

(also here, same topic http://www.guardian.co.uk/italy/stor...519576,00.html )

The CIA abducts HVTs abroad (when they are not likely to face justice in the host country's non-strict laws or procedures - like in Europe) and hand them over to countries where torture is allowed and carried out on a standard basis (things which you cannot do in the US of course). I personally agree on that (going to make a post about torture, elsewhere), but of course theres a lot of talk about violating international sovereignty and treaties.
Share your thoughts about this CIA practise.
July 14th, 2005  
Welshwarrior
 
 
Mmmmmm! I am not to happy about that, whats your feeling about a foreign agents coming into your country and doing the same?
July 14th, 2005  
Italian Guy
 
 
Oh it has happened man: read the first link.
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Boots
July 14th, 2005  
gladius
 
They shoulda let that guy be.

Who knows maybe that radical Muslim cleric may influence some young radicals over in Italy to plant bombs like those guys in London, its all good.



Quote:
Mmmmmm! I am not to happy about that, whats your feeling about a foreign agents coming into your country and doing the same?
If some Russian agents want to come here in the US and kinap some Chenchen Islamic Radical and deport him to Russia, I might be okay with that.
July 14th, 2005  
MontyB
 
 
How about if Iran wants to pop into the US and pick up a few "radical" christians or extract a few Israeli's it sees as subversive or dangerous?

I think this sets dangerous precedents.

However back to the original issue, I really have trouble believing this story it just doesn't stack up to me, surely given the close relationship that many nations have toward law enforcement the US would only have to request his arrest (especially since Italian authorities were close to doing it anyway) and take it from there.
July 14th, 2005  
Italian Guy
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
How about if Iran wants to pop into the US and pick up a few "radical" christians or extract a few Israeli's it sees as subversive or dangerous?

I think this sets dangerous precedents.

However back to the original issue, I really have trouble believing this story it just doesn't stack up to me, surely given the close relationship that many nations have toward law enforcement the US would only have to request his arrest (especially since Italian authorities were close to doing it anyway) and take it from there.
The point here is not arresting someone: the point is torture. Torture gives information that may be vital.
July 14th, 2005  
gladius
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
How about if Iran wants to pop into the US and pick up a few "radical" christians or extract a few Israeli's it sees as subversive or dangerous?

I think this sets dangerous precedents.
So is Iran going to kidnap US citizens? where are they going to deport these Israelis, back to Israel?

Did the US kidnap Italian citizens? NO.

The US didn't kidnap a citizen of one country and take him to a totally different country, gimme a break.

They took a radical who is a citizen of Egypt, the enemy of an allied state, also Egypt, and they deported him back to his own country (Egypt)where he belongs.

This situation helps all 3 countries US, Italy, and Egypt, to help stop the the spread of radical Islam, and guys like you complain and take it totaly off the mark and compare it with kinaping citizens of other countries. Having Iran kidnap someone in the US which it is not allied with, and don't serve the same interest, is not even close to the ludicrous precedent you are comparing it to.

So your saying we should wait for this guy to commit another 9-11 before taking any action against him right now, when we the perfect opportunity with his home country who wants him back as is willing to take cooperative action with the US to gain him back, correct?
July 15th, 2005  
MontyB
 
 
Hang on a sec:

Quote:
So your saying we should wait for this guy to commit another 9-11 before taking any action against him right now
I don't think throwing emotive terms into this in any way justifies breaking international laws, the simple and legal option would have been to have asked Italian authorities to detain him in a joint operation.

Quote:
This situation helps all 3 countries Us, Italy, and Egypt, to help stop the the spread of radical Islam, and guys like you complian and take it totaly off the mark and compare it with kinaping citizens of other countries.
Its an odd point of view given that Italy has now issued arrest warrants for the people involved and the Egyptians have released him.

Now once again I will state what I consider to be my views:

By all means if the guy is a potential threat to any nation arrest him and find out what he knows and if that involves flying him to Egypt, the US or Mars go for it.
BUT:
Follow the rules, we are constantly told that we are all in this "war on terrorism" together we must work together to achieve a win and yet "IF" this incident is true (and personally I am not yet convinced it is) it says that these rules of cooperation apply to the rest of the world but not the USA and if that is the case then I can guarantee you that international cooperation will dry up faster than drop of rain in Phoenix during a heat wave and thats is not something that the "free" world needs.
July 15th, 2005  
gladius
 
Okay I see your point. It does make sense, especially on an international cooperation standpoint.

The reason I was disagreeing with you is because you were comparing this to Iran kidnapping US citizens or Israelis, with no mutual interest between Iran and these countries, that would be simply be an outright act of hostility, and not merely a diplomatic foul.
November 16th, 2005  
Corocotta
 
 
Quote:
MADRID (Reuters) - A judge is investigating allegations the CIA used a Spanish airport as a base for transporting Islamic terrorism suspects, Spanish Interior Minister Jose Antonio Alonso said on Tuesday.
Several Spanish newspapers on Tuesday reported allegations that the U.S. intelligence agency had used the airport of Son Sant Joan on the Mediterranean island of Mallorca as a base of operations from early 2004 to early 2005.

The Spanish government had no knowledge of the alleged flights but a judge was investigating them, Alonso told Spanish television channel Telecinco.

"If it were confirmed that this is true, we would be looking at very serious, intolerable deeds because they break the basic rules of treating people in a democratic legal and political system," he said.

Defense Minister Jose Bono said there was no evidence, so he would not make accusations against Washington.

"We have no evidence, we have no proof, so I am not prepared to put a friendly, allied government on the spot on the basis of supposition and rumor," he told reporters.

The Washington Post reported this month that the CIA had been holding and interrogating al Qaeda captives at a secret facility in eastern Europe as part of a covert prison system established after the September 11, 2001 attacks.

Spain's El Pais newspaper quoted government sources on Tuesday as saying that Spain's intelligence service had asked the CIA before the summer to avoid using Spanish territory for transferring prisoners who had been detained illegally.

COMPLAINT OVER KIDNAPPING

The Mallorca flights were brought to light earlier this year by a local newspaper, the Diario de Mallorca, and led a group of local residents to file a legal complaint with the Spanish authorities over alleged illegal detention, kidnapping and torture, El Pais newspaper reported.

As a result of the complaint, prosecutors asked the police to carry out an investigation, it reported.

This found that four planes had made at least 10 stops at the Mallorca airport between January 2004 and January 2005.

One flight arrived from Algiers on January 22, 2004 and took off next day for Macedonia. There, it "allegedly" picked up a German man, Khaled el-Masri, and took him to a prison in Kabul, according to El Pais.

Lebanese-born Masri says he was kidnapped by U.S. agents in Macedonia and held for months in an Afghan jail before being freed in Albania. He is close to filing a civil suit in a U.S. court to claim compensation, his lawyer said last week.

Other flights went to and from Libya and from Bucharest to Washington, El Pais said.

The Spanish police report reached no conclusions about the purpose of the flights. A local judge decided the case was outside his jurisdiction and forwarded it to Spain's High Court, El Pais said.

A U.S. Embassy spokesman had no comment.

European Union Justice Commissioner Franco Frattini said in Strasbourg on Monday there was no evidence any EU state had housed secret CIA detention centers, but any EU country that has done so could face sanctions.

Human Rights Watch has identified Romania and EU member Poland as two countries possibly operating such jails. Romania is a candidate to join the EU. Both have assured the European Commission that there are no CIA jails on their territory.

Also on Tuesday, Sweden said it would look into reports from the Swedish news agency TT that two aircraft which in the past had been chartered by the CIA, had landed in the Nordic country, one in 2002 and the other in September this year.

"We have now demanded that the LFV (airport authority) and the Swedish Civil Aviation Authority, in co-operation with other authorities, provide us with complete information on what they know of this," state secretary Lars Danielsson told TT.

(Additional reporting by Niklas Pollard in Stockholm)

It seems that the rumors are true.