Churchill's rage over the loss of Singapore - Page 9




 
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December 3rd, 2011  
BritinBritain
 
 
Trying to debate with this clown samneanderthal is like flogging a dead horse.
December 3rd, 2011  
samneanderthal
 
Strange again that the German navy would make better use of seaplanes, which the British had perfected for long range flights and large capacity.
The Hurricane was more than able to take off from a carrier with a moderate load (even the B-25s took off with a ton of bombs, lots of fuel and a full crew took off from a carrier).
After a carrier launches its Hurricanes you can always transfer to it the crates and assemble 5 or more Hurricanes simultaneously every 2 days. Of course you have to guard it from the KM and LW.
Like you said, the frozen lakes were used when possible (as did 263 until its planes were wiped out).
Since the Germans have to fly several hundred miles to Narvik (which they took with a few destroyers, thanks to brilliant Churchillian planning) then their bomb loads were limited and they were quite vulnerable to fighters during the long flight (Bf-109s could not protect them, only clumsy Bf-110s which are ideal prey for Hurricanes).

By the way, the Polish destroyer Grom that you mentioned was very fast, 39 knots. It was sunk when a bomb from a plane hit close to a torpedo, but I haven't been able to find what kind of plane and bomb.

It does seem like a waste that after wiping out the German navy in the Narvik area at great cost, the port would be abandoned to the Germans.
December 3rd, 2011  
84RFK
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by samneanderthal
Strange again that the German navy would make better use of seaplanes, which the British had perfected for long range flights and large capacity.
The Hurricane was more than able to take off from a carrier with a moderate load (even the B-25s took off with a ton of bombs, lots of fuel and a full crew took off from a carrier).
After a carrier launches its Hurricanes you can always transfer to it the crates and assemble 5 or more Hurricanes simultaneously every 2 days. Of course you have to guard it from the KM and LW.
Like you said, the frozen lakes were used when possible (as did 263 until its planes were wiped out).
Since the Germans have to fly several hundred miles to Narvik (which they took with a few destroyers, thanks to brilliant Churchillian planning) then their bomb loads were limited and they were quite vulnerable to fighters during the long flight (Bf-109s could not protect them, only clumsy Bf-110s which are ideal prey for Hurricanes).

By the way, the Polish destroyer Grom that you mentioned was very fast, 39 knots. It was sunk when a bomb from a plane hit close to a torpedo, but I haven't been able to find what kind of plane and bomb.

It does seem like a waste that after wiping out the German navy in the Narvik area at great cost, the port would be abandoned to the Germans.
Except for the number of Walrus employed on the Narvik front I suppose the long range flyingboats was desperately needed to keep an eye on the German uboats.
Again, the distance and lack of proper harbours made it difficult to deploy anything else than the Walrus, as they were ferried accross on carriers and other ships.

The Hurricanes was never indeded to take off form the deck of the carriers, they were loaded aboard with a crane, and they were supposed to be loaded off in the same manner.
They only managed to get in the air because the carriers was ran full speed towards the wind.
You seem to forget that both the HMS Glorious and the HMS Furious was in fact modified battlecruisers of WW I vintage...

The lack of arresting hook on the Hurricanes made it a dangerous task to try a landing on the deck of the carriers, it was acomplished by loading the tail down with extra weight and apply full brakes the moment the wheels touched deck.

The idea of transfering crates containing dismanteled airplanes from a cargo ship to a carrier, even in the relatively shielded environment of a fjord....you haven't seen that place!

While the Luftwaffe had to negotiate a longer distance, they had the oportunity to take off from regular air-fields and not a swampy dirt-strip, and even with the limited bomb load that you claim they had, they still managed to sink the Grom.
As far as I remember she was sunk by a He-111.

I don't think the Churchillian plan included the possibility that the Norwegian commander in Narvik would surrender the city (without a single shot fired) to a "few" German destroyers.
The number of German destroyers was 10 by the way, not a small force in my opinion.
And even though the allies managed to sink them all, the Germans was still dug in deep in the fortified city of Narvik, so it wasn't just "abandoned" to the Germans.

By the way, the Norwegian commander who surrendered Narvik was charged with treason and collaboration with the enemy.
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December 3rd, 2011  
samneanderthal
 
I consider 10 destroyers a weak invading force. The destroyers carried over a thousand Gebirgsjägers, backed by bombers and the naval artillery so I don't think the Harbor commander could have done much, unless he had mines, torpedoes or coastal artillery. Was he convicted? The pitty is that the 2 gunboats with their heavy artillery were sunk before they sank the destroyers with their longer range atillery.

Landing the Hurricanes on a carrier was a remarkable feat, but should not have been necessary. However, taking off is definitely not difficult, a moderately loaded Hurricane has a lower wing loading than a fully loaded Brewster Buffalo (a carrier plane) and comparable power.

I don't think the seas in a fjord port can be much rougher than when the carriers had to be resupplied in open seas. Such resupplies involve moving crates weighing several tons containing food, spares for the planes, munitions, etc, Even the commerce raiders often had to resupply from submarines in the middle of the ocean, quite a feat.

The Churchillian plan included occupying Narvik and even invading Sweden, but oh surprise, he was beaten there by the German navy. Too bad he didn't send the fast Polish destroyers and a couple of cruisers with troops ahead and the carriers with a battleship and cruisers behind. Probably some admirals told him something like that, but Churchill was good at ignoring professional advice.

If an He-111 put a bomb on a destroyer, it had to be a hell of a crew, as I dont think it could dive bomb. It is more likely that it was a Ju-88 or something like that, as the STukas would not have had the range.

By the way, Glorious and Furious were pretty good carriers. Pegasus (Ark Royal) was the ridiculous one. 8 seaplanes and 11 knots.
December 3rd, 2011  
MontyB
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by samneanderthal
If an He-111 put a bomb on a destroyer, it had to be a hell of a crew, as I dont think it could dive bomb. It is more likely that it was a Ju-88 or something like that, as the STukas would not have had the range.
The Grom was sunk by an He 111 of KG-100 flown by Lt. Korthals.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCyG7...ayer_embedded#!

Seems those fast Polish destroyers were not fast enough to dodge an He 111.
December 3rd, 2011  
samneanderthal
 
Getting back to the east. I'd like to mention one of the most fruitful and gallant raids in WW II. The Japs had captured Port Blair and based there a dozen 2 and 4 engine, very long range flying boats which were providing invaluable information to the imperial navy regarding British ships, which were promptly sunk after detection. There were only 3 Hudsons with the range to attack the distant island and that only after stopping to refuel. The planes raided the Jap base on two occassions (April 14 and 18, 1942), facing Zeroes in the second raid. Only one Hudson survived, but all the flying boats were destroyed or heavily damaged, leaving the Japs without intelligence for a while.
December 4th, 2011  
George
 
Carriers alway launch @ max speed upwind. On Feb 22, 1940 an He-111 sank destoyers Z1 Leberect Maas & Z3 Max Shultz at night.
December 4th, 2011  
84RFK
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by samneanderthal
I consider 10 destroyers a weak invading force. The destroyers carried over a thousand Gebirgsjägers, backed by bombers and the naval artillery so I don't think the Harbor commander could have done much, unless he had mines, torpedoes or coastal artillery. Was he convicted? The pitty is that the 2 gunboats with their heavy artillery were sunk before they sank the destroyers with their longer range atillery.

Landing the Hurricanes on a carrier was a remarkable feat, but should not have been necessary. However, taking off is definitely not difficult, a moderately loaded Hurricane has a lower wing loading than a fully loaded Brewster Buffalo (a carrier plane) and comparable power.

I don't think the seas in a fjord port can be much rougher than when the carriers had to be resupplied in open seas. Such resupplies involve moving crates weighing several tons containing food, spares for the planes, munitions, etc, Even the commerce raiders often had to resupply from submarines in the middle of the ocean, quite a feat.

The Churchillian plan included occupying Narvik and even invading Sweden, but oh surprise, he was beaten there by the German navy. Too bad he didn't send the fast Polish destroyers and a couple of cruisers with troops ahead and the carriers with a battleship and cruisers behind. Probably some admirals told him something like that, but Churchill was good at ignoring professional advice.

If an He-111 put a bomb on a destroyer, it had to be a hell of a crew, as I dont think it could dive bomb. It is more likely that it was a Ju-88 or something like that, as the STukas would not have had the range.

By the way, Glorious and Furious were pretty good carriers. Pegasus (Ark Royal) was the ridiculous one. 8 seaplanes and 11 knots.
While you consider 10 destroyers a weak invading force, the German high command considered it sufficient, and they were proven right.

The defence of Narvik was divided between the Norwegian navy with 2 obsolete coastal defence ships (the Eidsvold and the Norge) both commissioned in 1901.and the army commanded by Col. Sundlo who had dug in around the harbour and possible landing zones, plus a substantial reserve in and around the city.

The German destroyers was a little more than half the size of the Norwegian ships, had twice the speed and in addition to being top modern, they carried state of the art main artillery and higly efficient torpedo batteries.
Taken into consideration that both main batteries and secondary armament on the Norwegian vessels also was of pre-WW I vintage, the size (calibre) doesn't say much of their potential effect.
The Norwegian navy was hopelessly outgunned and outnumbered.

The army could have delayed the German landing long enough to sabotage the harbour and the railway, both vital for the shipping of Swedish iron-ore and thus the main objective for the Germans, and then regrouped in order to fend the Germans off.
Col. Sundlo however didn't do anything, and instead surrendered the city and it's defences to the Germans, he was subject of "Standrett" ( a type of drum-head court-martial) in absentia where commanding general Fleischer sentenced him to death, but as this sentence was to be carried out within 24 hours to have effect, otherwise the case should be transfered to a civilian court, it didn't affect Col. Sundlo who stayed safe with the Germans.
After the war he was prosecuted for treason and collaboration with the enemy, the charges for treason was dropped, but he was convicted for collaboration.
The court was originally in favour of a death sentence, but later settled for life inprisonment.

The capitulation in Narvik would have been total if it wasn't for smaller groups of soldiers sneaking away during night, plus a force of 200 soldiers under command of Maj. Omdahl who simply marched out of the city right in front of the German troops guarding the exit routes.

The Brewster Buffalo did moderately well as a carrier-based fighter in the US Navy as the US carriers generally had a longer flight-deck than the Royal Navy carriers, the Royal Navy however didn't use the Buffalo's a carrier-based fighters.
The British carriers on the Narvik front could only theoreticly reach a maximum speed of 30 knots under good conditions, and the waters off the coast of Narvik, even as Vestfjorden is considered "sheltered waters" by standars unknown to me, didn't actually offer any good conditions.
Heavy waves and snowstorms being more of the rule than an exception, it's a remarkable feat that they didn't blow the boilers and turbines when they pushed old Glorious up to 30 knots in order to let the Hurricanes take off.

As for transfering heavy equipment in those waters in april, forget it.

Even without the ability of dive bombing it appears that an identified He-111 did sink the Grom.
December 4th, 2011  
samneanderthal
 
Hi George,
It appears that Z1 was sunk by a friendly He111 and Z3 hit a mine when rescueing the crew from Z1. A very costly case of friendly fire for a small navy. The KM and the LF had failed to inform each other that they were conducting operations in the same area.

Hi 84RFK,
There is an excellent propaganda series of 9 videos in German on Utube. Kampf um Norwegen. You can see pretty calm seas in Narvik, while the British pick up the Grom's survivors.
December 4th, 2011  
84RFK
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by samneanderthal
Hi 84RFK,
There is an excellent propaganda series of 9 videos in German on Utube. Kampf um Norvegen. You can see pretty calm seas in Narvik, while the British pick up the Grom's survivors.
The same occurs if you check the youtube link provided by MontyB here, and the sea is definately calm.
Would you start transfering goods (crated airplanes) between two stationary ships in a fjord where the Germans sunk ORP Grom just minutes earlier...?
 


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