Churchill's rage over the loss of Singapore - Page 6




 
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December 1st, 2011  
BritinBritain
 
 
Personally I want to keep the thread on track and keep the discussion factual.

I get annoyed with people like him because I had family friends who fought in Burma, another a POW in Singapore another as ground crew during the Battle of Britain another at the Battle of the River Plate, family member at Dunkirk and another in the LRDG, therefore I take it as an attack on their memory.
December 1st, 2011  
lljadw
 
If we would believe the claim of Sam about the aristocrats at Sandhurst (but,we don't),we could expect that a majority of the British Field Marshals belonged to the aristocracy.
Wel,from some 49 FM 's appointed in the 20th century(Royal family and foreigners not included),only seven....belonged to the aristocracy:
Paul Methuen :3th baron Methuen
Julian Byng:brother of the earl of Strafford
Rudolph Lambart:10th earl of Cavan
Philip Chetwode:7th Baronet
John Vereker :6th viscount Gort
Harold Alexander :brother of the earl of Caledon
Alan Brooke :son of a baronet
But, I am sure that Sam will give us detailed information ,proving that in the 20th century,a majority of the Sandhurst cadets belonged to the aristocracy,at the same time,he will give us the psychiatric report of Mountbatten.
December 1st, 2011  
samneanderthal
 
Getting back to the initial premise of the thread:

Option a) Send only a handful of SPitfires and 270 of the worst fighter planes to France during the long months of the Sitzkrieg. Lose almost all of them and 100 modern fighters based in Britain evacuating, lose the battle of France and the French pilots and hundreds of mediocre plains, risk the French navy joining the Germans, etc,

Option b) Send radar stations, most of the AA and all the available fighter planes to France during the Sitzkrieg, put the best planes in the hands of the best pilots of any nationality (Frantisek starts flying Spitfires and shooting down German planes before the Germans invade France, instead of flying a Hurricane on August 31). The 1,100 plus mediocre fighters are reinforced by close to 450 modern planes.
Germany loses hundreds of planes before the invasion and 2,000 during the first 2 weeks of the invasion (mostly bombers shot down by the mediocre fighters). Guderian does not receive the massive bombing support, Germany has to withdraw the Hs-123s and Stukas from France. Guderian is stopped and his tin tanks destroyed. Rommel's 88 mm gunners are killed by mediocre allied fighters and his tanks are destroyed in Arras. Hitler is faced with an attrition war that he cannot win, because his production is very low under Göring and French factories are increasing production of tanks, Dewoitine D-520s, etc, and the allies are receiving materiel and suppleis from America.
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December 1st, 2011  
samneanderthal
 
HI BritinAFrica,
far from an attack on their memory my intention is to understand why the people who served under British leaders faced such debacles. I never said anything negative about the people fighting in Singapore, Burma, etc, except that they were left to fight without planes, tanks, ships or field artillery and to suffer years of hell.
December 1st, 2011  
84RFK
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by samneanderthal
Getting back to the initial premise of the thread:

Option a) Send only a handful of SPitfires and 270 of the worst fighter planes to France during the long months of the Sitzkrieg. Lose almost all of them and 100 modern fighters based in Britain evacuating, lose the battle of France and the French pilots and hundreds of mediocre plains, risk the French navy joining the Germans, etc,

Option b) Send radar stations, most of the AA and all the available fighter planes to France during the Sitzkrieg, put the best planes in the hands of the best pilots of any nationality (Frantisek starts flying Spitfires and shooting down German planes before the Germans invade France, instead of flying a Hurricane on August 31). The 1,100 plus mediocre fighters are reinforced by close to 450 modern planes.
Germany loses hundreds of planes before the invasion and 2,000 during the first 2 weeks of the invasion (mostly bombers shot down by the mediocre fighters). Guderian does not receive the massive bombing support, Germany has to withdraw the Hs-123s and Stukas from France. Guderian is stopped and his tin tanks destroyed. Rommel's 88 mm gunners are killed by mediocre allied fighters and his tanks are destroyed in Arras. Hitler is faced with an attrition war that he cannot win, because his production is very low under Göring and French factories are increasing production of tanks, Dewoitine D-520s, etc, and the allies are receiving materiel and suppleis from America.
The initial premise of the thread....Churchills rage over the loss of Singapore...I can't see how relocating massive amounts of men and equipment to France would have any significant impact on the situation in Singapore...?

And please, how on earth could they possibly send radar stations to France???
We're talking about large concrete structures with massive arial towers and antenna masts resembling a mixture of a schooner rig and a high voltage power-line...


Oh, and it's BLITZKRIEG, not SITZKRIEG.
Blitzkrieg tranlates to "lightning-war" while Sitzkrieg would be "sitting-war" and thus a contradiction in terms.
December 1st, 2011  
VDKMS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by samneanderthal
If that is the only word you'll post, at least learn to spell it: nonsense
He's right, it's Flemish for nonsense (I'm not joking).
December 1st, 2011  
VDKMS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by samneanderthal
HI BritinAFrica,
far from an attack on their memory my intention is to understand why the people who served under British leaders faced such debacles. I never said anything negative about the people fighting in Singapore, Burma, etc, except that they were left to fight without planes, tanks, ships or field artillery and to suffer years of hell.
Do you want the planes to go to France, Singapore, Egypt or stay in England?
You must make a choice or are you a magician who can double or triple them in an instant? You oversimplify to much and pay no attention at all to logistics.
Ever played the game War in the Pacific? Try it and you'll now how important logistics are and how frustrating production can be.
December 1st, 2011  
84RFK
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by VDKMS
He's right, it's Flemish for nonsense (I'm not joking).
It's also Norwegian for nonsense.
December 1st, 2011  
84RFK
 
 
I must admit that I overlooked a piece of information here, the British did actually have portable radar sets!
While I was focusing on the RAF here I completely missed the fact that the army had portable radar sets, and they were in fact shipped to France with the British expetiton corps.
Haven't found reports about any actual deployment of these sets, but all 17 of them were lost at Dunkirk.

But still I fail to se the significance regarding Churchills rage over the loss of Singapore..
December 1st, 2011  
samneanderthal
 
Sitzkrieg is the German expression for Phoney war or drole de guerre, the time of inactivity in which dowding could have easily sent everything to France.
Besides the portable units, you had months to build Radar stations with equipment sent from Britain.
Sorry about mixing two threads.

The basic Premise of this thread is that Churchill had 3 options.
a) Sending hundreds of Hurricanes, tanks and even some pilots to Stalin in 1941 and lose Burma (an oil producer, the main rice exporter in the world and the only access route to China), Singapore, etc, and lots of ships, obsolete planes and men.
b) Sending the hundreds of planes and tanks to Singapore, Burma, etc, to reinforce the Buffaloes, etc, Buy Wildcats for the carriers, etc,
c) Withdraw the troops from Singapore, Malaya, Burma, etc, and save the men to fight when there are enough planes, etc, and hand the territories to the Japs. Which is what Vichy France did in Indochina.
 


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