Churchill's rage over the loss of Singapore - Page 10




 
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December 4th, 2011  
samneanderthal
 
Certainly, if you are covered by the 40 plus Hurricanes you launched when you arrived. If they had been there the LW would not have sent He-111s to sink Grom.
Actually, Britain had enough of carriers to send plenty of assembled Hurricanes and more than enough ships to land a large force. Churchill just didn't plan it well.
The German invasion was coordinated so that most places were attacked within a short time, whereas Churchill sent a few ships to lay mines, etc, that alerted the Germans of their intention and then attacked or landed in several places at different times and with few planes, allowing the Germans time to respond.
December 4th, 2011  
George
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by samneanderthal
Hi George,
It appears that Z1 was sunk by a friendly He111 and Z3 hit a mine when rescueing the crew from Z1. A very costly case of friendly fire for a small navy. The KM and the LF had failed to inform each other that they were conducting operations in the same area.

Hi 84RFK,
There is an excellent propaganda series of 9 videos in German on Utube. Kampf um Norvegen. You can see pretty calm seas in Narvik, while the British pick up the Grom's survivors.
According to my refs, there were British mines in the area, but the He-111 was given "credit" for both.
December 5th, 2011  
84RFK
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by samneanderthal
Certainly, if you are covered by the 40 plus Hurricanes you launched when you arrived. If they had been there the LW would not have sent He-111s to sink Grom.
Actually, Britain had enough of carriers to send plenty of assembled Hurricanes and more than enough ships to land a large force. Churchill just didn't plan it well.
The German invasion was coordinated so that most places were attacked within a short time, whereas Churchill sent a few ships to lay mines, etc, that alerted the Germans of their intention and then attacked or landed in several places at different times and with few planes, allowing the Germans time to respond.
Take a look at that youtube flick once again.
Notice something?
The water is calm, almost like a mirror.
That indicates no wind, how are you going to get the Hurricanes off the deck of HMS Glorious without any wind?

And the presense of RAF fighters didn't stop the Luftwaffe from sinking the Grom.
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December 5th, 2011  
samneanderthal
 
Wrong, all planes (18 Gladiators) of the 263 squadron were lost by April 26 and the squadron would not return until May 21 (11 days after the invasion of France!), still flying Gladiators but backed by Hurricanes. The Grum sank on May 4, coverless. Again, airplanes ruled in WW II.

You assemble 5 planes every 2 days and store them, when you have 20 or more you can either wait for wind or sail looking for wind out of the fjord and launch them, while you continue assembling. But like I said all this is not necessary, since Britain had plenty of carriers to ferry the planes in time (had Churchill known the paramount importance of planes and how to plan).
By the way the first 18 Gladiators were not transported with enough mechanics, etc, so some were not operational while they were under attack. Few, obsolete and poorly attended. I pity the brave pilots who had to put up with such leaders and be evacuated twice, most dying in the second one.
It is difficult to use invaluable pilots less efficiently during the most crucial days of the war.
December 5th, 2011  
84RFK
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by samneanderthal
Wrong, all planes (18 Gladiators) of the 263 squadron were lost by April 26 and the squadron would not return until May 21 (11 days after the invasion of France!), still flying Gladiators but backed by Hurricanes. The Grum sank on May 4, coverless. Again, airplanes ruled in WW II.

You assemble 5 planes every 2 days and store them, when you have 20 or more you can either wait for wind or sail looking for wind out of the fjord and launch them, while you continue assembling. But like I said all this is not necessary, since Britain had plenty of carriers to ferry the planes in time (had Churchill known the paramount importance of planes and how to plan).
By the way the first 18 Gladiators were not transported with enough mechanics, etc, so some were not operational while they were under attack. Few, obsolete and poorly attended. I pitty the brave pilots who had to put up with such leaders and be evacuated twice, most dying in the second one.
It is difficult to use invaluable pilots less efficiently during the most crucial days of the war.
And as there was no aircover to protect Grom, how do you suppose a stationary cargo vessel could possibly load crated airplanes on a similar stationary Glorious without having the Luftwaffe swarming all over them?
December 5th, 2011  
samneanderthal
 
Like I said the 40 plus assembled Hurricanes launched by the carrier upon arrival in April are providing cover (much more so than 18 Gladiators).
Had there been more Hurricanes and troops in Norway since April, Hitler would have had to send more planes and troops there too, instead of attacking France. He needed Narvik at any cost, because he could not count yet on the French iron ore.
December 5th, 2011  
84RFK
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by samneanderthal
Like I said the 40 plus assembled Hurricanes launched by the carrier upon arrival in April are providing cover (much more so than 18 Gladiators).
Had there been more Hurricanes and troops in Norway since April, Hitler would have had to send more planes and troops there too, instead of attacking France. He needed Narvik at any cost, because he could not count yet on the French iron ore.
If Hitler had been admitted to the Academy of Arts in Wienna.....
December 5th, 2011  
samneanderthal
 
Is your point, Churchill did everything right and no one has the right to criticize him? or is it things were like they were and it is useless to analize mistakes, because they cannot be changed? neither of which makes sense to me. My point is that Churchill made many basic mistakes that wasted many lives and resources and would have cost Britain the war were it not for the US and USSR, but people choose to ignore them because of his nice, abundant literary and speech BS. Britain had formidable resources that were used very poorly and looked like an amateur in 1939-42 not like a world power. Compare its performance to that of Finland, Poland, Japan or Romania in WW II, not to mention Germany, all of which had more limited resources.
By the way the Germans did use Stukas to attack some ships so they must have had aerodromes further north, since its range was quite limited. In 41 they also fought even in Murmansk with Bf-109, so it is far from impossible to build and maintain aerodromes in northern Norway for anybody with initiative and determination.
December 5th, 2011  
42RM
 
Total lack of realism
December 5th, 2011  
84RFK
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by samneanderthal
Is your point, Churchill did everything right and no one has the right to criticize him? or is it things were like they were and it is useless to analize mistakes, because they cannot be changed? neither of which makes sense to me. My point is that Churchill made many basic mistakes that wasted many lives and resources and would have cost Britain the war were it not for the US and USSR, but people choose to ignore them because of his nice, abundant literary and speech BS. Britain had formidable resources that were used very poorly and looked like an amateur in 1939-42 not like a world power. Compare its performance to that of Finland, Poland, Japan or Romania in WW II, not to mention Germany, all of which had more limited resources.
By the way the Germans did use Stukas to attack some ships so they must have had aerodromes further north, since its range was quite limited. In 41 they also fought even in Murmansk with Bf-109, so it is far from impossible to build and maintain aerodromes in northern Norway for anybody with initiative and determination.
No, they all made mistakes, every single one of the politicians and officers in charge, none of them were perfect.
Churchill took over a complete mess from Chamberlain and his "Peace for our time".
Roosevelt had the majority of his Pacific Fleet sunk by the Japanese in Pearl Harbour, wich Hirohito made the mistake of attacking.
Mussolini got the idea that he could actually go to war.
Horthy joined up with the Axis.
Hitler invaded Poland.
Etc.

The only sane dictator/leader was perhaps Franco who declared Spain neutral and managed to stay out of the war.

Oh, and since you obviously have the impression that it's easy to build an airfield in a few weeks in april, you are more than welcome to my place in april when the soil is thawing, and try for yourself.
A simple task of digging a ditch will only leave you muddy and frustrated.

I'm off, but if you're getting bored you can have this:
 


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