Chinese President Heckled

well, can every one just keep calm. according to my political teacher's point of view, democracy is not an ideology. the thing that different to the communism is the liberalism, in other words, democracy must be based on the liberalism. so it doesnt make sence to talk about democracy in china now. since china is not communist or liberalism, which is something trouble to define. so it is better to talk about freedom, human right,. But these may also subject to the surviving right, eating right. maybe the american and europe people and other country may not be able undertand. remeber, there is about 30 million people still suffering for cannot have full meal, and it is far away from satisfied eating. when you dont have enough to eat, will you care on human right or freedom.


and for this falungong issue, that women, please just ignore it. it is really meaningless. it is not that i am not respect human right, if you really understand this kind of organization, you what rather call it political group than religions group. by this way i am not finding an execuse for the ccp party, but just be objective. if it is really a religion group, i will show my respect. such as dalai lama, the one who is seeking the indepedance of tibet. i am not agree with his idea but i am still respect.

the last word is that nothing is ideal, so we dont accuse usa or other countries for not be perfect. when you are accusing china, are you making an assumption that china should be perfect?? if you are really making such assumption, then i would be happy, because critical makes progress, which applies to every country
 
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jequirity said:
Hmmm

China is doing not too shabbily these days, its true that they have a human rights record that is poor compared to some other countries especially when it comes to executing people
http://web.amnesty.org/pages/deathpenalty-stats2005-eng
But then Americas ranked up there too. America definitely has more freedom than China, but America is no saint either.
Whereas us europeans are spotless :hide: 'ahem' (Whatever you do, don't mention the War! Or most of our history beforehand!)
Death penalty and human rights abuses are two completely different issues. If a person does not want to live in the US for fear of the death penalty, they're free to move elsewhere (Canada?). Capital punishment in the US is usually reserved for those committing the most heinous of crimes. So it is not like the US is going around every pickpocket, drug dealer, etc. there is whereas in other countries (eg. Singapore), a couple of pounds of cocaine will get you the death penalty as opposed to the US where you only get a few years in prison (if at all). As for China, whether or not you're executed is up to the ccp, not their courts. The courts there are only for show.

zhjsg said:
and for this falungong issue, that women, please just ignore it. it is really meaningless. it is not that i am not respect human right, if you really understand this kind of organization, you what rather call it political group than religions group. by this way i am not finding an execuse for the ccp party, but just be objective. if it is really a religion group, i will show my respect. such as dalai lama, the one who is seeking the indepedance of tibet. i am not agree with his idea but i am still respect.

the last word is that nothing is ideal, so we dont accuse usa or other countries for not be perfect. when you are accusing china, are you making an assumption that china should be perfect?? if you are really making such assumption, then i would be happy, because critical makes progress, which applies to every country
What's wrong with having a political group? If they can offer the Chinese people a better life than the one under the ccp's rule, why not let them have a chance at elections? If they have elections in China at all.... the fair ones that is, not the ones where only ppl chosen by the ccp vote.

As for China not being perfect; no oen expects any country to be perfect. But the Chinese fanatics keep arguing that China is a rising power and is a world player and whatnot; shouldn't China make some sort of effort to reform its ancient ways to fit into the modern world and possibly *gasp* be a world leader?
 
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Well I am glad that the Falung Gong isn't a political party. Last thing you need is a religious party running a country..... hhmm, does sound like something I here often these days.
The crack down on these members is a rather harsh measure, but they are not contributing really to a better life. Well, maybe spiritually but that's all. I see them like the Baghwan sect in the 80's. In the end there are always a lot of skeletons in the closet.

And the human rights issues... there are many reports from international organisations that put the US also high up the list together with China. It's just what you want to believe I guess?
 
ASTRALdragon said:
Death penalty and human rights abuses are two completely different issues. If a person does not want to live in the US for fear of the death penalty, they're free to move elsewhere (Canada?). Capital punishment in the US is usually reserved for those committing the most heinous of crimes. So it is not like the US is going around every pickpocket, drug dealer, etc. there is whereas in other countries (eg. Singapore), a couple of pounds of cocaine will get you the death penalty as opposed to the US where you only get a few years in prison (if at all). As for China, whether or not you're executed is up to the ccp, not their courts. The courts there are only for show.


What's wrong with having a political group? If they can offer the Chinese people a better life than the one under the ccp's rule, why not let them have a chance at elections? If they have elections in China at all.... the fair ones that is, not the ones where only ppl chosen by the ccp vote.

As for China not being perfect; no oen expects any country to be perfect. But the Chinese fanatics keep arguing that China is a rising power and is a world player and whatnot; shouldn't China make some sort of effort to reform its ancient ways to fit into the modern world and possibly *gasp* be a world leader?

sorry for not express my argument well. there is nothing wrong to be a political group. but the thing is that, that group deny to be a political group, so what is your feeling???
 
Politics and religion are a nasty but inevitable mix. The great fear of the CCP right now is that someone or some thing will unit all of these disgruntled masses which are currently acting out of concert with each other as thousands of protests erupt each month. Were someone to coordinate these groups there would be revolution, no if's, and's or but's about it. Religion is one of those "things" that has the potential to do just that.
 
ASTRALdragon said:
As for China not being perfect; no oen expects any country to be perfect. But the Chinese fanatics keep arguing that China is a rising power and is a world player and whatnot; shouldn't China make some sort of effort to reform its ancient ways to fit into the modern world and possibly *gasp* be a world leader?

I read all these posts but this paragraph kinda peeved me. China is a relativley new world power (as in compared to other countries) and it seems to me that it is going through the same thing that America did in the 1890s-1920s, which was to modernize itself to world standards. The fact is, this modernization does not happen overnight, so it will take time for China to develop the sense of balance between the old ways of life and the new. There has been progress in this area through limited reform in certain areas, but I dont think it is moving an faster or slower than any other country trying to reshape its entire economic, political and social base.

America is a world power, that is advanced in many areas, but it got that way over decades of economic and political reform. It is not right for us to question another country's pace when it comes to reform without first examining how we did it in our not-so-distant past.

Reform in America truly has not finished yet, our chinese friends had a good point when they pointed out that there has not been a black or women president yet. I believe that this is the next step for reform in the US, and the fact is in this area we are sorely behind some parts of the world.
 
Missed this little postscript...

Major differences WNxRogue which render your comparison specious.

At no time in America's history other than during war was the freedom of the press or freedom of speech curtailed.

At no time has there ever been infringement on freedom of religion.

At no time has there ever been a one party system.

Shall I go on?
 
China is going through an enormous change as we speak, all of the processes we have been talking about here, are involved and will eventually change towards the "world standards" which in themselves are ever changing.

e.g.The Chinese government may attempt to censor the Internet, but the Chinese people are not stupid, there will always be people who will find ways around any limitations. The door of free knowledge has been cracked open and will only open wider, the people will experience outside influences at an ever increasing rate as China opens its trade and exchange of ideas to the world.

This is all happening at an exponential rate, I feel that we will see great changes in Chinese politics and general view of the world over the next five to ten years.

But the first steps have already been taken and already there are many industries opening up in China that work on the much feared "Capitalist" system, Chinese millionaires are being made every day as the people wake up to the advantages of this system. It will be these manufacturing and trade giants that will eventually force Communism out the window. It will start in the large free trade zones and spread from there.

P.S. I have no "sources" for any of this it is purely my own view.
 
Spike, having been there I can say that its not happening that way. The millionaires are all corrupt party officials or friends of officials. China is tightening the censorship not loosening it as we speak. And the Chinese people are not stupid but they do not find their way around it, they are buying it. I'll shoot ya a email with more details for your reading enjoyment mate.
 
What follows are the main features of democracy:

1)Free, fair and respected elections with more than one part running, possibly as many parties as possible. Each party is allowed to freely voice its opinions and have it printed, spread and reached as many people as possible. Whoever gets more votes is entitled to govern. One party system is NOT democratic. Citizens give legitimacy to the government, not the other way around.

Free? Elections are not free. People pay for it via taxes. All those people that are "voting administrators are paid through the state or government. That money is garnered through taxes. To be able to vote you must be registered. To be registered means you have to have an address. Which means you have to pay rent and utilities. Which means you have a job (generally) which means you pay taxes. No, not free.

2)Every opinion is guaranteed unless it infringes the right to democracy and freedom by others. Noone is jailed or fined for saying something.

Beg to differ. You can be fined for making slanderous remarks against a person. It is called being sued by that person. If the remakrs are indeed deemed slanderous then that person will win the case and a reward can/will be awarded.

3)Every minority (be it cultural, ethnic, religious, political, or any other type) is respected and not punished.

By the government of today, yes. History shows this has not always been the case.

4)Human rights are observed. Universally.

Basic human rights? Perhaps. Let me play Devil's Advocate: What about the poor detainees in Gitmo?

5)Freedom of speech. You can write and read whatever you want on papers or say that on tv. You can criticize your own government saying your president is a dumbass and not be jailed for that.

You can not say whatever you want on TV. There is this thing called FCC that limits the type of words and images that can be viewed on TV to protect the children and others from unwanted exposure to things that would be considered rude, crude, vulgar or plain disgusting.

6)Freedom of religion. Total, complete.

Negative friend. You can not perform animal sacrifice or human sacrifice. If your religion includes honoring your ancestors via an animal you will likely not be able to do that in a big city.

7)You can freely and easily travel from any part of your country to any other part of your country (excepted entering military facilities or private properties) without the need to ask for any permit or anything. You can as easily and freely decide to travel abroad, move abroad, come back and leave again with no restrictions.

Nothing to disagree with here.

8]No one can seize your properties. It's yours and you can't be deprived of it.

I hope you mean that property can not be seized "just because". Property can and will be seized if it is used for a crime or part of a crime.

9]You have the right to a fair and just trial in court. You are considered innocent until proved guilty.

No doubt there. Until the media gets ahold of you. Then they will crucify you just to feed the wolves.

I would now like to know which one of the above mentioned aspects are to be met in China by ordinary Chinese everyday and in every part of the country. Thank you.

Granted, I am taking some of these things literally. But I hope you see the overall point I was making. Democracy is a great ideal. But when the media can "create" news and call it "freedom of speech", when a person can call rude comments to the Vice President, then no, I feel in that case democracy works against us. have to go watch a hockey game. Hope this maybe lets you get a different eye on things.
 
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I hope you mean that property can not be seized "just because". Property can and will be seized if it is used for a crime or part of a crime.


While not the same... Eminent Domain laws could be viewed in effect as the Government taking Private Property, even when paid what the Government views as just, if it is done over the objections of the Property Owner.....

US Constitution
Amendment V
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

An Owner may view the amount offered as unjust if the owner really does not wish to sell at such amount, or any amount. But the owner will in the end have no choice if the Federal Government rules the owner must sell for the price offered by the Federal Government.
 
I thought with Eminent Domain there were certain jurisdiction issues. For instance, if the property in question is within city limits, the city has to buy it from the owner and can then sell it to the federal government, and if the city wants to expand against the will of a home owner the State has to buy the land from the land owner and then sell it to the city. Or like most laws it was written by lawyers, for lawyers, to ensure a need for lawyers to make sure they would always have a job.
 
I thought with Eminent Domain there were certain jurisdiction issues. For instance, if the property in question is within city limits, the city has to buy it from the owner and can then sell it to the federal government, and if the city wants to expand against the will of a home owner the State has to buy the land from the land owner and then sell it to the city. Or like most laws it was written by lawyers, for lawyers, to ensure a need for lawyers to make sure they would always have a job.


.
From the U.S. Code Online via GPO Access
[wais.access.gpo.gov]
[Laws in effect as of January 7, 2003]
[Document not affected by Public Laws enacted between
January 7, 2003 and December 19, 2003]
[CITE: 49USC24311]


TITLE 49--TRANSPORTATION

SUBTITLE V--RAIL PROGRAMS

PART C--PASSENGER TRANSPORTATION

CHAPTER 243--AMTRAK

Sec. 24311. Acquiring interests in property by eminent domain

(a) General Authority.--(1) To the extent financial resources are
available, Amtrak may acquire by eminent domain under subsection (b) of
this section interests in property
--
(A) necessary for intercity rail passenger transportation,
except property of a rail carrier, a State, a political subdivision
of a State, or a governmental authority; or
(B) requested by the Secretary of Transportation in carrying out
the Secretary's duty to design and build an intermodal
transportation terminal at Union Station in the District of Columbia
if the Secretary assures Amtrak that the Secretary will reimburse
Amtrak.

(2) Amtrak may exercise the power of eminent domain only if it
cannot--
(A) acquire the interest in the property by contract; or
(B) agree with the owner on the purchase price for the interest.

(b) Civil Actions.--(1) A civil action to acquire an interest in
property by eminent domain under subsection (a) of this section must be
brought in the district court of the United States for the judicial
district in which the property is located or, if a single piece of
property is located in more than one judicial district, in any judicial
district in which any piece of the property is located. An interest is
condemned and taken by Amtrak for its use when a declaration of taking
is filed under this subsection and an amount of money estimated in the
declaration to be just compensation for the interest is deposited in the
court. The declaration may be filed with the complaint in the action or
at any time before judgment. The declaration must contain or be
accompanied by--
(A) a statement of the public use for which the interest is
taken;
(B) a description of the property sufficient to identify it;
(C) a statement of the interest in the property taken;
(D) a plan showing the interest taken; and
(E) a statement of the amount of money Amtrak estimates is just
compensation for the interest.

Full Code Statute http://frwebgate4.access.gpo.gov/cg...ISdocID=2344762636+10+0+0&WAISaction=retrieve
 
I was approached by a Chinese man today here when i was getting back home from college and he gave me a flyer with lots of info on torturing of Falun Gung followers in Communist China.

It's really sad & bad!
 
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Hi, guy,what on earth do you mean by posting this? I also can see familiar posts in Chinese internal internet pages. Maybe the censor of Chinese goverment is still not so tough,hehe. Don't you think America was and is just like pure God for all times when it growed up? But I also don't mean China can do like that.
Sigh........, so funny!

few fights,more talk, it's very important. Fortunately, I find there are still many guys clear-headed.
 
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We never had organ farming of political dissidents on the scale reported here. Do you have some links to information you would like to discuss or are you going to engage in ad hominem attacks like some many other Chinese posters before you?

At no point did I say the US was faultless but I did claim that the problems in China are far more sinister than those which occured in the development of the US. If you have some links to information disproving my claims then by all means lay on MacDuff.

Try doing a websearch with the words "china organ harvesting falun gong" on google and let me know what you get if you want to discuss censorship. ;)

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That's what I heard is all you can see unless you use a proxy server.
 
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Does anybody else wonder if the same lady who condemned the Chinese President is now condemning the US President for the same reasons? Not that said claims would carry the same amount of validity, but that won't stop a lot of people.
 
I don't think there is any doubt about China's institutionalised human abuse practices nor that many developed Western nations have not had entirely clean hands either on human rights.

But relating to the topic is our turning a blind eye to China's human rights abuses in order to trade. That sucks in my opinion.

I momentarily saw some sense in the Clinton doctrine of engagement - that is be nice to China and win her over to Western Christian values slowly (and pick up some dosh for the 1996 election while we're at it). But I have come to believe that she can't be so engaged in any reasonable time frame and that treating her like we (the West) did to South Africa (and maybe the old USSR) is the policy that will achieve the fastest results ( ie political change). I'm open to enlightenment of course.
 
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